D&D 5E The tyranny of small numbers

Oofta

Legend
Nobody claims a character with a 14 in their primary stat is unplayable. What they do claim (correctly) is that it will have a significant impact on their effectiveness at their class role. You make a lot of rolls that are modified by your primary ability over the course of 12 levels, compared to having a 16. A 5% lower chance of success on all of them is a significant impediment. It’s not an interesting difference, and it won’t meaningfully affect how the character plays. It just makes them consistently a bit worse at doing exactly the same things.

Depending on how you generate ability scores, it can also make the a bit better at a lot of other things. We use point buy, sometimes my PCs don't have optimized primary stats because I want to contribute elsewhere. Maybe I want to have a dex based PC that doesn't completely suck at strength or have a charismatic fighter. In general I don't like playing stupid PCs because I want to actually play my PC as written, not just ignore that 8 intelligence.

You know what? Nobody notices. It doesn't really make that much of a difference. I'm still successful 95% of the time (actually a bit more because a 20 always hits) I would have been with that +1. In the meantime my PC is not min/maxed to the point I can't contribute out of combat. That matters to some of us.
 

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HaroldTheHobbit

Adventurer
I might be a bad DM, but I scale and adapt my encounters (or at least try to) to fit the partys abilities, so the challenge and fun stay the same no matter if they are optimizers or have less focus on maxing stats and abilities.

So I'm all for players who go with non-maxed primary stats.
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
You know, when I saw the title for this thread I thought it was going to be about one of two things:

1. Small bonuses adding up over and over like in older editions where you had a +1 for this and that and don't forget the other thing, oh, and this thing too!
2. How little impact small numbers have due to the size of the d20 and the other "large" numbers in the game, like bloating HP.

So, I was pleasantly surprised to see that this was actually about the desire to not optimize and how you can really have a very fun and successful character with a 14 in your main stat, how taking feats that give you breath or options or flavor can make your PC more fun that just getting your main stat to 18 or 20.

IME, a 14 is all you need. Yes, having better numbers means you are more likely to succeed, and over the long run that can make an impact, but if your character is developed to simply enjoy playing and maybe even embrace the necessity to find other avenues to success, I think keeping your ability scores non-optimal is actually pretty good.

Another benefit of not min-maxing is you tend to not have a dump stat, and while you might not be playing to strengths, in a sense you are avoiding a weakness. ;)
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
In the meantime my PC is not min/maxed to the point I can't contribute out of combat.
Your hyperbole is showing. Since when does "getting a 16 in your main stat" equate to anything even remotely like "min/maxed to the point [one] can't contribute out of combat"? Particularly when that stat is, typically, Dex or Cha, the two stats which have the most utility out of combat?

Another benefit of not min-maxing is you tend to not have a dump stat, and while you might not be playing to strengths, in a sense you are avoiding a weakness.
As a general rule, avoiding weaknesses is less effective than capitalizing on strengths. One should, of course, attempt to ameliorate weaknesses where they appear. But doing your best at the things you expect to do frequently, and trying where possible to make any weaknesses you possess be infrequent concerns, is a demonstrably and consistently superior strategy when compared to accepting lower performance on common tasks in order to avoid lower performance on uncommon ones.

----

Perhaps a better way to phrase some of my criticisms above: Why get mad about people doing the things the game rewards, and not doing the things the game doesn't reward? Many of the results being lamented in this thread are the direct (and entirely foreseeable) consequence of 5e's design. Making ASIs compete with feats, for example, pushes players toward viewing ASIs (and feats) in terms of getting the best benefit they can. Having stats with wildly divergent benefits (e.g. Intelligence is essentially useless to anyone that isn't a Wizard, Artificer, or Int-based skill-user, Strength is extremely important for Barbarians and mostly irrelevant for Rogues, and Dexterity and Constitution are valuable to essentially all characters) exacerbates this situation. Having significant power--both in terms of current state and in terms of future potential--locked in instantly with character creation pushes people toward preparing for the future long before it occurs, rather than rewarding players who allow their characters to grow organically in response to their journey or as they strive toward their (often-changing) goals.

It seems to me that there is a pattern, here, of people being annoyed, often to a particularly pitched degree, because players are looking at the rules of the game and trying to make smart decisions. It is, as both studies have shown and experience will show, completely pointless to try to oppose this impulse. Human beings will try to be smart and efficient with their resources when in an environment where they are motivated to succeed, and games are one of the most well-demonstrated examples of such an environment.

Instead of getting mad, or telling people off, or trying to present not following that natural and rational impulse as something nobler or superior or whatever, why not actually reward folks who choose differently? Why not grant benefits for folks who defy expectations? Obviously I'm not going to come up with brilliant flawless examples on the fly here, but why not do something like granting a bonus feat for characters who have no stat higher than 14, or who only put stats higher than 14 into "non-primary" stats (e.g. a Warlock with Strength 16, Cha 14)? Or perhaps giving out one cool magic item for folks who choose to play the "standard/expected" bonuses for a given race, while playing a class normally not associated with them, e.g. a Mountain Dwarf Wizard or a Dragonborn Monk?

I get a pretty strong fire-and-brimstone preaching vibe from all this. Trying to scare the optimizers straight. That will never work. I can promise you that. But the carrot, rather than the stick, actually has a chance of working.
 
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Warpiglet-7

Cry havoc! And let slip the pigs of war!
Your hyperbole is showing. Since when does "getting a 16 in your main stat" equate to anything even remotely like "min/maxed to the point [one] can't contribute out of combat"? Particularly when that stat is, typically, Dex or Cha, the two stats which have the most utility out of combat?
I think it started on page one where people suggested optimizers were being bashed in shortly after I expressed my opinion.

I know they are in some areas but not from me. I just don’t want new players in particular to think there is a narrow formula.

I sure would not stop a new player from pumping his fighters strength at every turn either if that is what would bring excitement and fun.
 

I see a lot of advice to new players about what is imperative. As an example, I have seen a 16 as an attack stat characterized as insufficient even at lower levels.
lets be fair and assume that you will only ever attack with things you are prof in... in theory that means you have +2-+6 from prof... in my experence normally +2-+4 for most campaigns.

if you have a 12 or 13 in the stat you get a +1 so that makes the attack +3-+5 I will call it +4 on average... since there are almost no ACs in the 20's this means you have between a 60% and a 35% chance to hit. (average 47%)

if you have a 16 stat that is both +2 to hit and damage better making that 70%-45% (average 57%)

assuming over any given level you face some high and some low ACs you are floating around the 50% hit rate either way... but being just over or just under is a WORLD of difference.
It got me thinking what about magic items? Are we telling people they must have a +1 sword or the character is doomed? Or what about people that roll slightly lower or fairly evenly distributed?

this is a SUPER diffrent thing... as early as CR 2 and CR 3 you have things resist and immune to nonmagic damage... if you don't give every weapon user a magic weapon that is a HUGE issue... no matter what people say about items being optional.
 

So, if you're a Fighter, right. At levels 1-5, you get to do one thing each turn. You have an attack bonus of 5. So you have a good chance to miss AC's above 17, which you will encounter (unless you're an archer). And if you miss, outside of your once every handful of fights (depending on short rest) Action Surge, that's it, sit down, you did nothing.

That kind of play is pretty dreadful, really, and I hate that it's so hard coded into the system. So yeah, I would like to have the best chance to hit, and the lowest chance to whiff and do nothing. What's wrong with that? I'm making a choice by doing that, by not getting cool Feats (if allowed) or shoring up other ability scores.
one of the WORST experiences I had as a DM was early in 5e, and I will never forget it. We had a battle master fighter (maybe the last fighter I saw in 5e) the player put a 14 in str and a 13 in dex but had a race that gave +2 dex making it a 15. His fighting style was the one handed bonus damage one (dueling I think it's called) and he faught with a long sword and long bow. at level 3 we played multi games were he bearly hit... but the big thing was something he started tracking... and brought up at 5th level (he took the inspiring leader feat at 4th) he had since he started tracking at beginning of 3rd level not once hit with an action surge... he hit or missed on normal attacks but every single action surge he missed with.

now to help him I threw in guntlets of giant str 22 and a +2 longsword (defender) and that did help... but as was pointed out by the barbarian, imagine if he DIDn't need those.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
I think it started on page one where people suggested optimizers were being bashed in shortly after I expressed my opinion.

I know they are in some areas but not from me. I just don’t want new players in particular to think there is a narrow formula.

I sure would not stop a new player from pumping his fighters strength at every turn either if that is what would bring excitement and fun.
I assume you're referring to me. I certainly take statements like:
"Are we telling people they must have a +1 sword or the character is doomed?"
and
"There are lots of other ways to build one…if you can tolerate a slightly smaller bonus here or there."

as being pretty hyperbolic. The former statement openly implies that even a single deviation results in doom and gloom proclamations from anyone interested in optimization. That is both unfair and inaccurate in most cases. The second likewise implies that optimizers find it intolerable to ever have "a slightly smaller bonus here or there." That is likewise both unfair and inaccurate in most cases.

Do you deny that these paint essentially all optimizers with a broad brush of unfair and inaccurate assertions?
 

Oofta

Legend
Your hyperbole is showing. Since when does "getting a 16 in your main stat" equate to anything even remotely like "min/maxed to the point [one] can't contribute out of combat"? Particularly when that stat is, typically, Dex or Cha, the two stats which have the most utility out of combat?


As a general rule, avoiding weaknesses is less effective than capitalizing on strengths. One should, of course, attempt to ameliorate weaknesses where they appear. But doing your best at the things you expect to do frequently, and trying where possible to make any weaknesses you possess be infrequent concerns, is a demonstrably and consistently superior strategy when compared to accepting lower performance on common tasks in order to avoid lower performance on uncommon ones.

I think it's personal preference, people put too much emphasis on their primary stat to the exclusion of everything else. What is less effective (and by how much) is going to vary wildly. If my barbarian has an 8 wisdom and is regularly dominated it suddenly becomes quite detrimental to the group. Depending on the DM, a lot of rolls may be made that don't include your primary skills.

If my PC has an 8 charisma in a game with significant emphasis on social encounters and the DM regularly asks for persuasion or deception checks in social situations then I'm going to avoid speaking during those encounters which means I will not be contributing meaningfully for a significant portion of the game. Not everyone wants to play a bard or a dex based PC. It will, of course, vary widely from one game to the next.
 

Oofta

Legend
I think it started on page one where people suggested optimizers were being bashed in shortly after I expressed my opinion.

I know they are in some areas but not from me. I just don’t want new players in particular to think there is a narrow formula.

I sure would not stop a new player from pumping his fighters strength at every turn either if that is what would bring excitement and fun.

Same here. I don't care if you min/max. I do sometimes, depending on the game and my vision of the PC. Other times my primary stat has been a 14 (I eventually got to a 16).

I just don't think that you don't have to have a race to 20 for your primary ability score for every PC you ever make.
 

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