Paul Farquhar
Legend
Have you never played Diablo and it's family of computer games? Because the Necromancer class does not work like that.
D&D 5E (2024) The Undead Army Necromancer is not Designable
- Thread starter Rushbolt
- Start date
Tonguez
A suffusion of yellow
Undead Horde Spell
You raise a shambling horde of Undead from the unhallowed ground or nearby corpses. The horde manifests as a single Large creature occupying a 10 ft square, composed of a dozen or so loosely bound undead. It obeys your commands and acts on your turn.
Undead Horde
AC: 12 + PB HP: 15 × PB Speed: 20 ft
You may command the horde with your bonus action to do one of the following:
Slam Attack - use your spell attack modifier to hit, reach 5 ft, 2d6 + cha bludgeoning
Grappling Swarm - if the horde moves into the same space as an enemy, the enemy is grappled (Str (Athletics) Save v 8 + Necromancer Spell Save DC to resist). A grappled enemy takes PB necrotic damage
As a Reaction you may use Fleshy Shield - if a Necromancer within 5 ft of its undead horde is attacked, a corpse in the horde takes the damage instead
Horde Deterioration: Every time the horde takes more than 10 damage from a single source, reduce its attack damage by 1d6 as corpses in the horde fall apart.
Up Cast: When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 4th level or higher, increase the HP by 10 and the Slam damage by +1d6 per level above 3rd.
As an Action you may Split the Horde , you may command your Undead horde to split into two medium hordes. These smaller hordes each occupy a different 5×5 ft space, have half HP and half the damage dice of the original horde. They act together under your control and share the same bonus action to attack.
You raise a shambling horde of Undead from the unhallowed ground or nearby corpses. The horde manifests as a single Large creature occupying a 10 ft square, composed of a dozen or so loosely bound undead. It obeys your commands and acts on your turn.
Undead Horde
AC: 12 + PB HP: 15 × PB Speed: 20 ft
You may command the horde with your bonus action to do one of the following:
Slam Attack - use your spell attack modifier to hit, reach 5 ft, 2d6 + cha bludgeoning
Grappling Swarm - if the horde moves into the same space as an enemy, the enemy is grappled (Str (Athletics) Save v 8 + Necromancer Spell Save DC to resist). A grappled enemy takes PB necrotic damage
As a Reaction you may use Fleshy Shield - if a Necromancer within 5 ft of its undead horde is attacked, a corpse in the horde takes the damage instead
Horde Deterioration: Every time the horde takes more than 10 damage from a single source, reduce its attack damage by 1d6 as corpses in the horde fall apart.
Up Cast: When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 4th level or higher, increase the HP by 10 and the Slam damage by +1d6 per level above 3rd.
As an Action you may Split the Horde , you may command your Undead horde to split into two medium hordes. These smaller hordes each occupy a different 5×5 ft space, have half HP and half the damage dice of the original horde. They act together under your control and share the same bonus action to attack.
James Gasik
We don't talk about Pun-Pun
FrogReaver
The most respectful and polite poster ever
Problem: Necromancer fans want many permanent minions but many permanent minions makes for poor ttrpg gameplay for many reasons. Slow turns and aoe being the most notable.
There is no solution here. You either give Necromancer fans what they want or you keep the gameplay good.
There is no solution here. You either give Necromancer fans what they want or you keep the gameplay good.
To my mind, the horde necromancer is the BBEG. It’s an NPC antagonist archetype in virtually every media I’ve seen, not a protagonist. Whenever I’ve seen it attempted by players, it brings up visions of “Here comes the heroic party into town…followed by the zombie horde” and it’s such a jarring incongruity that the DM and player have to get around that it becomes not worthwhile and that’s before you even get to the action economy problems too.
I mained Necro in D2 back in the day
Iron Maiden Blood Golem prenerf
So to me, I'm going back to
Raise Skeleton
Blood Golem
Iron Golem
Bone Spear
Bone Spirit
Life Tap
Iron Maiden
1 spell for a blob of
1 spell for big
1 spell for shoot
1 spell for life drain
Micah Sweet
Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
Clerics were great ways to fit the necromancer concept back in the day, and I would certainly count that as a necromancer. Beyond that, there was 2e's Complete Book of Necromancers, and a ton of 3pp for 3e that expanded what you could do. Same with 5e 3pp and D&D variants of that system.
Muh
Hero
Having read some of the PF2 necromancer class it looks pretty good. They have fewer spell slots per level, instead relying on more thematically connected focus spells. Many focus spells require "thralls" which are essentially animated corpses.
The thing that sets it apart from other implementations I've seen is that you don't really have control over thralls directly, instead you cast focus spells that expend them as resources.
The thing that sets it apart from other implementations I've seen is that you don't really have control over thralls directly, instead you cast focus spells that expend them as resources.
Micah Sweet
Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
Anything an NPC can do, a similar concept PC should also be able to do IMO. And vice versa.
James Gasik
We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Thinking about this, I think the problem is, not every class can become a minionmancer (or maybe they could, see below). The sheer action economy of having multiple bodies would quickly make some classes irrelevant in many situations.
And it's not like this is a Necromancer only problem. Other kinds of magicians should be able to get in on this as well. Enchanters could have mindslaves or charmed thralls aplenty. Conjurers could be able to have long-term summoned allies. Illusionists can have legions of Simulacra.
Then again, maybe Animal Handling should let you train a pack of guard dogs or wolves? Allow you to befriend animal allies ala Tarzan or Grizzly Adams or Dar the Beastmaster?
Maybe Fighters, I don't know, should have a subclass where you are a leader of men, with a capable lieutenant and men-at-arms following you around?
All of these things sound reasonable in a real world scenario, right? But that would change the game, much as it changed Gygax's AD&D game when his players hired a horde of NPC's to send ahead of them into dungeons. The combat rules as they stand would strain under the weight of so many actions.
The CR system would certainly be unable to handle things- how do you build an encounter with 4 PC's, 4 zombies, one NPC warrior loyal to the Fighter, 6 wolves, a summoned Efreet, and a pair of charmed Duergar? Especially when many of these characters are "free", acquired by abilities, as opposed to monsters, where every combatant takes part of the encounter budget to justify? And do you reduce the xp earned by the party for having minions, even though zombies don't earn xp (and were created via the Necromancer's spells)?
How long will battles take? How quickly will the DM have to start murdering NPC allies wholesale to get their game back in line?
I don't think the Undead Army Necromancer is not designable. But I think the game itself would have to be redesigned to allow for it.
And it's not like this is a Necromancer only problem. Other kinds of magicians should be able to get in on this as well. Enchanters could have mindslaves or charmed thralls aplenty. Conjurers could be able to have long-term summoned allies. Illusionists can have legions of Simulacra.
Then again, maybe Animal Handling should let you train a pack of guard dogs or wolves? Allow you to befriend animal allies ala Tarzan or Grizzly Adams or Dar the Beastmaster?
Maybe Fighters, I don't know, should have a subclass where you are a leader of men, with a capable lieutenant and men-at-arms following you around?
All of these things sound reasonable in a real world scenario, right? But that would change the game, much as it changed Gygax's AD&D game when his players hired a horde of NPC's to send ahead of them into dungeons. The combat rules as they stand would strain under the weight of so many actions.
The CR system would certainly be unable to handle things- how do you build an encounter with 4 PC's, 4 zombies, one NPC warrior loyal to the Fighter, 6 wolves, a summoned Efreet, and a pair of charmed Duergar? Especially when many of these characters are "free", acquired by abilities, as opposed to monsters, where every combatant takes part of the encounter budget to justify? And do you reduce the xp earned by the party for having minions, even though zombies don't earn xp (and were created via the Necromancer's spells)?
How long will battles take? How quickly will the DM have to start murdering NPC allies wholesale to get their game back in line?
I don't think the Undead Army Necromancer is not designable. But I think the game itself would have to be redesigned to allow for it.
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