D&D 5E (2024) The Undead Army Necromancer is not Designable

[Micah Sweet]

Neither of these resemble the Diablo Necromancer though, which is really what this thread is all about. The Diablo Necromancer has a bunch of until-they-are-killed undead minions, and the reason it can have them is that they are controlled by the computer. So in that sense the OP is correct, it's impractical for a player to have multiple independently acting long duration minions in a turn based tabletop game.

The Mage Hand Press Necromancer can have about as many active minions as the Diablo necromancer, particularly if you let its class feature minions stack with the spell-animated kind (which the class has as a sidebar option).

 

[Micah Sweet]

Saying I want lots of minions is another way of saying (unintentionally....in most cases) I hate the fighter.

Not really the issue at hand, though (and I don't really buy it anyway).

 

[TiQuinn]

Anything an NPC can do, a similar concept PC should also be able to do IMO. And vice versa.

I would’ve agreed with that once upon a time but I think that can lead to bad game design. Some concepts that will work fine with, but others, like the necromancer, do not.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Thinking about this, I think the problem is, not every class can become a minionmancer (or maybe they could, see below). The sheer action economy of having multiple bodies would quickly make some classes irrelevant in many situations.

And it's not like this is a Necromancer only problem. Other kinds of magicians should be able to get in on this as well. Enchanters could have mindslaves or charmed thralls aplenty. Conjurers could be able to have long-term summoned allies. Illusionists can have legions of Simulacra.

Then again, maybe Animal Handling should let you train a pack of guard dogs or wolves? Allow you to befriend animal allies ala Tarzan or Grizzly Adams or Dar the Beastmaster?

Maybe Fighters, I don't know, should have a subclass where you are a leader of men, with a capable lieutenant and men-at-arms following you around?

All of these things sound reasonable in a real world scenario, right? But that would change the game, much as it changed Gygax's AD&D game when his players hired a horde of NPC's to send ahead of them into dungeons. The combat rules as they stand would strain under the weight of so many actions.

The CR system would certainly be unable to handle things- how do you build an encounter with 4 PC's, 4 zombies, one NPC warrior loyal to the Fighter, 6 wolves, a summoned Efreet, and a pair of charmed Duergar? Especially when many of these characters are "free", acquired by abilities, as opposed to monsters, where every combatant takes part of the encounter budget to justify? And do you reduce the xp earned by the party for having minions, even though zombies don't earn xp (and were created via the Necromancer's spells)?

How long will battles take? How quickly will the DM have to start murdering NPC allies wholesale to get their game back in line?

I don't think the Undead Army Necromancer is not designable. But I think the game itself would have to be redesigned to allow for it.

Level Up has several statblock variations (see particularly the Monster Menagerie 2) that would allow the horde class fantasy.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I would’ve agreed with that once upon a time but I think that can lead to bad game design. Some concepts that will work fine with, but others, like the necromancer, do not.

YMMV. I see no insurmountable problem with it.

 

[mellored]

Problem: Necromancer fans want many permanent minions

i'm not sure that's true.

They want an "army" to attack with, sure. And maybe a permanent undead servants. But unless i missed it, I still haven't seen anyone here say they want to roll for individual creatures.

We had other spells already make similar changes and it passed first try. Plenty of nit picking about what exactly the new zones did (as there is about summon undead horde), but I didn't see anyone complaining about not having 8 individual creatures to manage.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

The Mage Hand Press Necromancer can have about as many active minions as the Diablo necromancer, particularly if you let its class feature minions stack with the spell-animated kind (which the class has as a sidebar option).

But does it deal with the issue of multiple minions slowing the game down, and leaving the other players twiddling their thumbs?

 

[FrogReaver]

i'm not sure that's true.

They want an "army" to attack with, sure. And maybe a permanent undead servants. But unless i missed it, I still haven't seen anyone here say they want to roll for individual creatures.

I am 100% certain.

We had other spells already make similar changes and it passed first try. Plenty of nit picking about what exactly the new zones did (as there is about summon undead horde), but I didn't see anyone complaining about not having 8 individual creatures to manage.

There was plenty of pushback on those other spell changes as well.

 

[Micah Sweet]

But does it deal with the issue of multiple minions slowing the game down, and leaving the other players twiddling their thumbs?

It suggests it might be a problem for your group, but allows you to make your own decisions and doesn't use the rules to force you to play a certain way. At least, it didn't when originally published (I know they made changes to their material when they "updated" it to 5.5 and put it on DDB, So my info may be out of date).

 

[Minigiant]

Problem: Necromancer fans want many permanent minions but many permanent minions makes for poor ttrpg gameplay for many reasons. Slow turns and aoe being the most notable.

There is no solution here. You either give Necromancer fans what they want or you keep the gameplay good.

Necromancer fans have to accept that like in fiction, the undead army is a swarm and 1 unit.

You don't control 10 skeletons, you control 1 mass of skeletons.