D&D 5E (2024) The Undead Army Necromancer is not Designable

[Shadowedeyes]

Fun is subjective, so no designer is going to be able to make a game that definitively fun for everyone. I mean, ECMO3 finds the 2014 version of Indomitable fun, while I have never seen any other ability suck the excitement out a player after they realize just how awful it is. The best a designer can do is try to make a game that a significant portion of the players and DMs find fun.

The necromancer army is a cool idea for certain, and I'm not sure I agree that it can;t be done. But how it has been done has had problems. The biggest, IMO, in it being a a big time sink to resolve said army.

 

[ECMO3]

It's more fun when you are more powerful than the other PCs.
It's less fun when you are weaker than them.

This is not true and if it were true players would not play weaker PCs. Everyone would play a max-power PC tailred for the level and campaign, and they don't.

People build their characters to be fun and they play less than optimal characters frequently (virtually all the time in fact) and they do it because those "weaker"characters are fun.

If in fact players found weaker characters less fun, then players would not play them.

You might make an exception for beginners or someone who does not know the rules, but no one who does know the rules is going to purposely play a character that is not fun for that player to play.

I play with one group that higly optimizes their PCs and in the 15 or so 1-20 campaigns we have played, I only had the most powerful PC in one campaign (a Halfling Bladesinger 18/Death Cleric 2). Yet all of my PCs were fun to play, including some that were clearly the weakest at the table at high level.

So balance is important.

It is not important or even relevant IME.

Of course, you can have 18 skeletons and still be weak.

To have 18 skeletons RAW you need to be at least an 11th level Necromancer, have 18 corpses on hand and spend a 6th level slot (5), three 4th level slots (9) and two 3rd level slots (4). You have to spend those slots every single day if you want to keep 18 Skeletons around. That is all the 4th and 6th level slots and two out of three 3rd level slots for an 11th level full caster.

You can just stop right here with nothing else, no homebrew at all. A Necromancer running around with 18 skeletons on hand is already weaker most other full casters and most 2024 martials because she is spending most of her most powerful spell slots on the "Skeleton Tax" to keep the undead army around.

 

[ECMO3]

I mean, ECMO3 finds the 2014 version of Indomitable fun, while I have never seen any other ability suck the excitement out a player after they realize just how awful it is.

I don't necessarily find the 2014 version of Indomitable "fun", Indomitable is not why I play a fighter, but the 2024 version at very high levels (say around 15+) makes encounters difficult to design, and more importantly it makes published material more difficult to directly apply to the game and that is why I changed it back in the games I DM.

 

[mellored]

I don't necessarily find the 2014 version of Indomitable "fun", Indomitable is not why I play a fighter, but the 2024 version at very high levels (say around 15+) makes encounters difficult to design, and more importantly it makes published material more difficult to directly apply to the game and that is why I changed it back in the games I DM.

You litterally just said balance

It is not important or even relevant IME.

That's some extreme double standard you have.

 

[Shadowedeyes]

Not to go too far off topic, but on the Indomitable topic, I'm sure the buffed 2024 version does have an effect on encounter balance, but I find that acceptable in exchange for it feeling like an actual helpful ability compared to the 2014 ability that if completely removed would have had almost no noticeable change in the games I have run. But like I said, a matter of preference.

The skeleton issue, besides any balancing argument, is frankly the time it takes up to run 18 skeletons. It's actually worse than the pixie summoner in this case since they will always be there and doesn't interfere with concentration. Which means you have deal with it every single battle and even in between.

 

[FarBeyondC]

To have 18 skeletons RAW you need to be at least an 11th level Necromancer, have 18 corpses on hand and spend a 6th level slot (5), three 4th level slots (9) and two 3rd level slots (4). You have to spend those slots every single day if you want to keep 18 Skeletons around. That is all the 4th and 6th level slots and two out of three 3rd level slots for an 11th level full caster.

You can just stop right here with nothing else, no homebrew at all. A Necromancer running around with 18 skeletons on hand is already weaker most other full casters and most 2024 martials because she is spending most of her most powerful spell slots on the "Skeleton Tax" to keep the undead army around.

Not sure who started the 18 skeleton thing. Multiples of 4 (8, 12, 16) are better.

Anyway, having 18 Skeletons RAW isn't as difficult as you described.

You really only need to be a 7th level Necromancer if you're willing to work more than a day on it, 8th if you can wait a short rest, or 9th if you're really impatient.

1. Source the corpses / pile of bones (ir)responsibly. My favorite necromancer also happens to be a member of a faith with no qualms making - or providing - corpses for free, much less for generous 'donations' to their temples, so I usually don't have any material issues. When I do have material issues... that's what bandits are for.

2. Animate your dead. If you're a Necromancer Wizard, your Animate Dead targets one additional corpse or pile of bones. That's 2 for a 3rd level slot, 4 for a 4th level slot, 6 for a 5th level slot, etc. So at 9th level, you'd use your 1 5th level and 3 4th level slots to animate 18 (6 + 4 + 4 + 4) undead. At 8th level, you'd use your 2 4th level and 3 3rd level slots to animate 14 (4 + 4 + 2 + 2 + 2) undead, short rest to get back a 4th level slot via Arcane Recovery, and use it to get your remaining 4 undead. At 7th level you'd use your 1 4th level and 3 3rd level slots to animate 10 undead, short rest to get back a 4th level slot via Arcane Recovery, and use it to get 4 more undead (total 14). The next long rest, spend 1 4th level spell slots and 2 3rd level spell slots to maintain control over the 14, short rest to get back a 4th level slot via Arcane Recovery, and use it to get your last 4 undead.

3. Maintain control of your minions. Keeping control of already animated minions is less spell intensive than animating them. A 3rd level slot lets you maintain control over 4 undead you've animated, a 4th level slot 6, a 5th level slot 8, etc. Maintaining 18 undead would thus only require 3 4th level slots or (if you're doing this at 7th level) 1 4th and 3 3rd level slots.

Side note, if you're using all your high level slots just to maintain undead, you're doing it wrong (you have too many undead). Using all your slots to get your squad up is certainly bold, but fine though.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

3. Maintain control of your minions.

How do you do that when the other party members are slapping your character round the head for being a selfish tit?

 

[FarBeyondC]

How do you do that when the other party members are slapping your character round the head for being a selfish tit?

If the below doesn't work, they clearly aren't the correct party. Thus, I'd find a more amenable group.

If my skeleton squad makes me so unbalanced that the rest of the party is irrelevant, then I'm clearly slumming around.

Normally, I'd take that opportunity to manage the less interesting but necessary stuff so that they can handle what most interests them with a sort of safety net.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

If the below doesn't work, they clearly aren't the correct party. Thus, I'd find a more amenable group.

I think you are failing to understand the problem. It's not unbalanced - skeletons are rubbish. What you are doing is hogging the spotlight - even if the things you are doing are boring and trivial, because whilst you are talking everyone else is sitting around getting bored and playing on their phones (or choosing to exercise their right to PvP against you).

Playing D&D requires interpersonal skills and sensitivity to the other players. If you don't develop those you will have a very hard time keeping a group.

 

[ECMO3]

You litterally just said balance

Where? Please provide the quote and highlight the word "balance" in it where it is relevant to what you quoted.

That's some extreme double standard you have.

How so?