The Worship Points System
- Thread starter Upper_Krust
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poilbrun
Explorer
Re: No rules changes
I tend to disagree on that point. I would prefer to have everything in the book rather to have to go to a website to see the modifications of the rules, then have to print them and insert them in the book so that I can refer to them easily while I DM...RiotGear said:
Upper_Krust
Legend
Re: Re: SUPERnatural armour?
I seem to have stirred up a hornets nest here, remember at this point I am still contemplating its introduction - which was why I asked everyones opinions...thanks for all the responses.
I'll reply to you all in turn.
Hi poil brun mate!
Thanks! I think I am over the worst of it, no more headaches, just a runny nose.
Logically, if the armour isn't natural (or manufactured), then it must be supernatural.
Simply that Anti-Magic blocks supernatural abilities.
Not necessarily. Do you alter the challenge rating of a 20th-level Wizard simply because of the 'possibility' they will get caught within an anti-magic field, no, of course not.
Remember of course that anyone in the Anti-Magic Field will also have magical bonuses negated. In my estimation all things will still be even.
In my opinion if you have natural armour; you have to look like you have natural armour! Otherwise you have supernatural armour.
For a long time now I have been searching for a clear method of determining natural armour from supernatural armour to answer a number of fundamental questions:
- Why should deities who are not naturally armoured have the same natural armour as those that are!?
eg. Should Odin have the same or better Natural Armour than Tiamat?
No, certainly not! Likely a better Armour Class, but not Natural Armour. Tiamat is a colossal dragon deity with incredibly thick scales. Her size and heavy natural armour keep her Dexterity at 10. Odin on the other hand has an incredibly high Dexterity (I anticipate in the low 80s). He can benefit from wearing armour, Tiamat cannot.
- If having high natural armour makes you look freakish as well as reduces your dexterity, it must therefore be superior to supernatural armour.
At a base level all this need represent is that natural armour functions within Anti-Magic.
However, you could also decree that Natural Armour reduces damage (in effect duplicating resilience) rather than increasing AC. Something I have advocated ever since Simon introduced (what was then Armour Value) into our own campaign years ago. Although I refrained from headlining it in the WPS; even though from what I can tell it not only makes more sense but is the rule set to be used in many forthcoming d20 variant systems. Including D20 Modern (if I'm not mistaken) according to the interview with Anthony Valterra on the EN Main News Page.
Obviously Tiamat is easy to hit, but not to hurt!
At the moment I am leaning towards using the supernatural armour idea.
However, remember that it will be an optional rule in the WPS (albeit one which I advocate). Within deity descriptions you won't need to change a thing if you don't wish to utilise supernatural armour, since both NA and SnA will be calculated into the Armour Class.
The only modification would be if you planned to incorporate Natural Armour as Resilience.
Technically there are 2 methods to this (depending on whether you wish to have Natural Armour increase AC or reduce Damage). I'll have the second worked out later - in fact just thought of it.
Method #1 (Natural Armour = AC increase)
As a simple rule of thumb (for Outsiders) I would always keep Supernatural Armour equal to Hit Dice.
39HD Balor
Supernatural Armour = +39
Natural Armour +10 (original 7 + 3 for size increase), +5 of which is determined by size, leaving a remaining +5; meaning a Balor has skin like chainmail.
Dexterity becomes 10.
66HD Solar
Supernatural Armour = +66
Natural Armour +5 (original 2 + 3 for size increase)
Dexterity becomes 17.
However, deities won't gain this automatically, but rather must manifest the power by expending worship points.
Method #2 (Natural Armour = Reduced Damage)
Same principle as before (SnA = Outsider HD) except that any Natural Armour subtracts from Supernatural Armour.
13HD Balor
Supernatural Armour = +13
Natural Armour +7
Supernatural Armour Reduced to +6. (13 - 7)
Dexterity becomes 10.
66HD Demogorgon
Supernatural Armour = +66
Natural Armour +15
Supernatural Armour Reduced to +51. (66 - 15)
Dexterity reduced by 15 (probably to about 20).
So Demogorgons Ac would be about 64* and you would need to deliver in excess of 15 damage to hurt him.
49HD Tiamat
Supernatural Armour = +49
Natural Armour +48
Supernatural Armour Reduced to +1. (49 - 48)
Dexterity reduced by 48 (obviously to 10).
So Tiamats AC would actually be 3* but you would need to deal over 48 hit points damage in a single attack to hurt her!
*Not counting Magic Items.
Technically you could also presume that the NA increase from size didn't detract from SnA - but I will have to have a think on this point.
In my estimation supernatural armour is like a sort of innate mage armour. Personally I wouldn't allow them to stack, simply chose the highest figure.
Thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt mate!
I seem to have stirred up a hornets nest here, remember at this point I am still contemplating its introduction - which was why I asked everyones opinions...thanks for all the responses.
I'll reply to you all in turn.
Hi poil brun mate!
poilbrun said:
Thanks! I think I am over the worst of it, no more headaches, just a runny nose.
poilbrun said:
Logically, if the armour isn't natural (or manufactured), then it must be supernatural.
poilbrun said:
Simply that Anti-Magic blocks supernatural abilities.
poilbrun said:
Not necessarily. Do you alter the challenge rating of a 20th-level Wizard simply because of the 'possibility' they will get caught within an anti-magic field, no, of course not.
poilbrun said:
Remember of course that anyone in the Anti-Magic Field will also have magical bonuses negated. In my estimation all things will still be even.
poilbrun said:
In my opinion if you have natural armour; you have to look like you have natural armour! Otherwise you have supernatural armour.
For a long time now I have been searching for a clear method of determining natural armour from supernatural armour to answer a number of fundamental questions:
- Why should deities who are not naturally armoured have the same natural armour as those that are!?
eg. Should Odin have the same or better Natural Armour than Tiamat?
No, certainly not! Likely a better Armour Class, but not Natural Armour. Tiamat is a colossal dragon deity with incredibly thick scales. Her size and heavy natural armour keep her Dexterity at 10. Odin on the other hand has an incredibly high Dexterity (I anticipate in the low 80s). He can benefit from wearing armour, Tiamat cannot.
- If having high natural armour makes you look freakish as well as reduces your dexterity, it must therefore be superior to supernatural armour.
At a base level all this need represent is that natural armour functions within Anti-Magic.
However, you could also decree that Natural Armour reduces damage (in effect duplicating resilience) rather than increasing AC. Something I have advocated ever since Simon introduced (what was then Armour Value) into our own campaign years ago. Although I refrained from headlining it in the WPS; even though from what I can tell it not only makes more sense but is the rule set to be used in many forthcoming d20 variant systems. Including D20 Modern (if I'm not mistaken) according to the interview with Anthony Valterra on the EN Main News Page.
Obviously Tiamat is easy to hit, but not to hurt!
poilbrun said:
At the moment I am leaning towards using the supernatural armour idea.
However, remember that it will be an optional rule in the WPS (albeit one which I advocate). Within deity descriptions you won't need to change a thing if you don't wish to utilise supernatural armour, since both NA and SnA will be calculated into the Armour Class.
The only modification would be if you planned to incorporate Natural Armour as Resilience.
poilbrun said:
Technically there are 2 methods to this (depending on whether you wish to have Natural Armour increase AC or reduce Damage). I'll have the second worked out later - in fact just thought of it.
Method #1 (Natural Armour = AC increase)
As a simple rule of thumb (for Outsiders) I would always keep Supernatural Armour equal to Hit Dice.
39HD Balor
Supernatural Armour = +39
Natural Armour +10 (original 7 + 3 for size increase), +5 of which is determined by size, leaving a remaining +5; meaning a Balor has skin like chainmail.
Dexterity becomes 10.
66HD Solar
Supernatural Armour = +66
Natural Armour +5 (original 2 + 3 for size increase)
Dexterity becomes 17.
However, deities won't gain this automatically, but rather must manifest the power by expending worship points.
Method #2 (Natural Armour = Reduced Damage)
Same principle as before (SnA = Outsider HD) except that any Natural Armour subtracts from Supernatural Armour.
13HD Balor
Supernatural Armour = +13
Natural Armour +7
Supernatural Armour Reduced to +6. (13 - 7)
Dexterity becomes 10.
66HD Demogorgon
Supernatural Armour = +66
Natural Armour +15
Supernatural Armour Reduced to +51. (66 - 15)
Dexterity reduced by 15 (probably to about 20).
So Demogorgons Ac would be about 64* and you would need to deliver in excess of 15 damage to hurt him.
49HD Tiamat
Supernatural Armour = +49
Natural Armour +48
Supernatural Armour Reduced to +1. (49 - 48)
Dexterity reduced by 48 (obviously to 10).
So Tiamats AC would actually be 3* but you would need to deal over 48 hit points damage in a single attack to hurt her!
*Not counting Magic Items.
Technically you could also presume that the NA increase from size didn't detract from SnA - but I will have to have a think on this point.
poilbrun said:
In my estimation supernatural armour is like a sort of innate mage armour. Personally I wouldn't allow them to stack, simply chose the highest figure.
poilbrun said:
Thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt mate!
Upper_Krust
Legend
Re: Hrmmm
Hi Ring Xero.
Nice Avatar by the way!
Thanks! I appreciate the interest!
The previous changes are fairly minor: Challenge Ratings above 20 must be revised, of that there can be no argument; equally the vorpal ability. Resilience for golems (equal to their hardness) is subjective on my part but necessary at higher levels (trust me).
By all means!
Okay, well I have revised it since last night (see my previous post) and by tomorrow it will either be perfected or the idea will be dropped.
Okay lets address each point in turn.
Challenge Ratings above 20 must be addended! Otherwise they make no sense!
Simply put; a 50th-level character is not CR50, in that it is not the equivalent of 32,768 20th-level characters.
I have already freely posted what I think is the most simple and effective solution (I will do so again if asked?).
This point is optional. All I advocate is that Golems gain Resilience equal to their material hardness.
eg. An Iron Golem would have Resilience 10, DR 40/+3 instead of DR 50/+3. Meaning that you need to deliver more than 10 points of damage to injure it regardless of weapon '+'.
My reasoning (other than being logical) is to compensate for a golems lack of hit points (due in effect to them having no Con bonus) at high levels. Damage Reduction is so black and white to be next to irrelevant in most cases, notably so the higher it ascends.
I don't see how you would have to 'incorporate' my Feats more than any others.
Three more!?
I advocate Natural Armour and Supernatural Armour should be seperated thats all.
Actually I perceive this as being a relatively simple addendum.
Exactly what I thought when I remember Simon introduced the idea of Armour Value (armour reducing damage rather than the chance of being hit) into our campaign. An idea I grew to love though!
So trust me, I know what I'm doing!
All changes to core rules are detailed in (white type) black bars to clearly seperate it from the rest. As such they are all optional, if advised addendums.
The exception to this would be the seperation of Natural and Supernatural Armour within AC listings. However, this requires no actual revisions unless you wish to apply the Natural Armour to Resilience instead of AC.
eg. Demogorgon
AC: 79 (-2 size; +5 Dex; +15 Natural; +51 Supernatural)
For those who still wish to retain how Natural Armour/Armour works in the Core Rules the AC won't need to be changed.
For those who do wish to change it, simply subtract Natural Armour and apply it to Resilience. Simplicity itself.
I'll provide in an addendum any minor details to enable current creatures to be converted to this optional rule.
RingXero said:
Hi Ring Xero.
Nice Avatar by the way!
RingXero said:
Thanks! I appreciate the interest!
RingXero said:
The previous changes are fairly minor: Challenge Ratings above 20 must be revised, of that there can be no argument; equally the vorpal ability. Resilience for golems (equal to their hardness) is subjective on my part but necessary at higher levels (trust me).
RingXero said:
By all means!
RingXero said:
Okay, well I have revised it since last night (see my previous post) and by tomorrow it will either be perfected or the idea will be dropped.
RingXero said:
Okay lets address each point in turn.
RingXero said:
Challenge Ratings above 20 must be addended! Otherwise they make no sense!
Simply put; a 50th-level character is not CR50, in that it is not the equivalent of 32,768 20th-level characters.
I have already freely posted what I think is the most simple and effective solution (I will do so again if asked?).
RingXero said:
This point is optional. All I advocate is that Golems gain Resilience equal to their material hardness.
eg. An Iron Golem would have Resilience 10, DR 40/+3 instead of DR 50/+3. Meaning that you need to deliver more than 10 points of damage to injure it regardless of weapon '+'.
My reasoning (other than being logical) is to compensate for a golems lack of hit points (due in effect to them having no Con bonus) at high levels. Damage Reduction is so black and white to be next to irrelevant in most cases, notably so the higher it ascends.
RingXero said:
I don't see how you would have to 'incorporate' my Feats more than any others.
RingXero said:
Three more!?
I advocate Natural Armour and Supernatural Armour should be seperated thats all.
Actually I perceive this as being a relatively simple addendum.
RingXero said:
Exactly what I thought when I remember Simon introduced the idea of Armour Value (armour reducing damage rather than the chance of being hit) into our campaign. An idea I grew to love though!
So trust me, I know what I'm doing!
RingXero said:
All changes to core rules are detailed in (white type) black bars to clearly seperate it from the rest. As such they are all optional, if advised addendums.
The exception to this would be the seperation of Natural and Supernatural Armour within AC listings. However, this requires no actual revisions unless you wish to apply the Natural Armour to Resilience instead of AC.
eg. Demogorgon
AC: 79 (-2 size; +5 Dex; +15 Natural; +51 Supernatural)
For those who still wish to retain how Natural Armour/Armour works in the Core Rules the AC won't need to be changed.
For those who do wish to change it, simply subtract Natural Armour and apply it to Resilience. Simplicity itself.
I'll provide in an addendum any minor details to enable current creatures to be converted to this optional rule.
Last edited:
Upper_Krust
Legend
Re: No rules changes
Hi RiotGear mate!
It should be relatively straightforward to incorporate these core rule addendums/options into the WPS without disturbing things.
Don't worry there will be plenty of 'divine hoo ha' in there I can assure you!
Hi RiotGear mate!
RiotGear said:
It should be relatively straightforward to incorporate these core rule addendums/options into the WPS without disturbing things.
Don't worry there will be plenty of 'divine hoo ha' in there I can assure you!
Upper_Krust
Legend
Re: Re: No rules changes
Hey guys!
The explanation of Supernatural Armour and the optional revision for Natural Armour (and how to convert current monsters/characters to this optional rule) will be within an appendix; but within deity/monster AC descriptions I will likely divide Natural Armour to incorporate the Supernatural Armour idea - since that won't interfere with AC if you don't want it to.
Incidently I am leaning towards Method #2 as described in an above post.
Hey guys!
poilbrun said:
Impeesa said:
The explanation of Supernatural Armour and the optional revision for Natural Armour (and how to convert current monsters/characters to this optional rule) will be within an appendix; but within deity/monster AC descriptions I will likely divide Natural Armour to incorporate the Supernatural Armour idea - since that won't interfere with AC if you don't want it to.
Incidently I am leaning towards Method #2 as described in an above post.
Upper_Krust
Legend
Hi RingXero mate!
Do you want me to respond to your previous post? I read it just before you wiped it!
?
Do you want me to respond to your previous post? I read it just before you wiped it!
?
Upper_Krust
Legend
Supernatural Armour made easy!?
Hey all
(actually tried posting this a few hours ago with no luck)
I think I have an easy method of determining Supernatural Armour.
I think I was putting the cart before the horse. Natural Armour should be determined before Supernatural Armour. Let me know what you all think!? Remember this is an optional rule to be included in an appendix!
Step One: Determine Skin Type
- Normal Skin (Unarmoured), NA +/-0, eg. Succubus, Graz'zt
- Thick/Leathery Skinned (Lightly Armoured), NA +2, eg. Vrock, Orcus
- Scaly Skinned (Armoured), NA +5, eg. Balor, Demogorgon
- Armour Plated/Carapace (Heavily Armoured), NA +8, Glabrezu, Lolth, Tiamat
Step Two: Determine Size
- Large, NA x1.5 +2
- Huge, NA x2 +5
- Gargantuan, NA x3 +9
- Colossal, NA x4 +14
Step Three: Determine Natural Armour
eg.
- Succubus: NA = 0
- Graz'zt: NA = +2 (Large)
- Vrock: NA = +5 (Leathery Skinned and Large)
- Orcus: NA = +5 (Leathery Skinned and Large)
- Balor: NA = +9 (Scaly Skinned and Large)
- Demogorgon: NA = +15 (Scaly Skinned and Huge)
- Glabrezu: NA = +21 (Armour plated and Huge)
- Lolth (Spider Form): NA = +14 (Armour plated and Large)
Step Four: Determine Supernatural Armour (Subtract Natural Armour from Hit Dice)
eg.
- Succubus (6HD): SnA = +6
- Graz'zt (62HD): SnA = +60 (62 - 2)
- Vrock (8HD): SnA = +3 (8 - 5)
- Orcus (44HD*): SnA = +39 (44 - 5)
- Balor (13HD): SnA = +4 (13 - 9)
- Demogorgon (66HD): = +51 (66 - 15)
- Glabrezu (10HD): = +0 (10 - 21)
- Lolth (Spider Form) (60HD): +46 (60 - 14)
*Current WotC version.
Step Five: Reduce Dexterity (subtract Natural Armour from Dexterity), Minimum 10.
eg.
- Succubus: no change
- Graz'zt: -2 Dex
- Vrock: -5 Dex
- Orcus: -5 Dex
- Balor: -9 Dex
- Demogorgon: -15 Dex
- Glabrezu: -21 Dex
- Lolth (Spider Form): -14 Dex
Any comments!?
Hey all
(actually tried posting this a few hours ago with no luck)
I think I have an easy method of determining Supernatural Armour.
I think I was putting the cart before the horse. Natural Armour should be determined before Supernatural Armour. Let me know what you all think!? Remember this is an optional rule to be included in an appendix!
Step One: Determine Skin Type
- Normal Skin (Unarmoured), NA +/-0, eg. Succubus, Graz'zt
- Thick/Leathery Skinned (Lightly Armoured), NA +2, eg. Vrock, Orcus
- Scaly Skinned (Armoured), NA +5, eg. Balor, Demogorgon
- Armour Plated/Carapace (Heavily Armoured), NA +8, Glabrezu, Lolth, Tiamat
Step Two: Determine Size
- Large, NA x1.5 +2
- Huge, NA x2 +5
- Gargantuan, NA x3 +9
- Colossal, NA x4 +14
Step Three: Determine Natural Armour
eg.
- Succubus: NA = 0
- Graz'zt: NA = +2 (Large)
- Vrock: NA = +5 (Leathery Skinned and Large)
- Orcus: NA = +5 (Leathery Skinned and Large)
- Balor: NA = +9 (Scaly Skinned and Large)
- Demogorgon: NA = +15 (Scaly Skinned and Huge)
- Glabrezu: NA = +21 (Armour plated and Huge)
- Lolth (Spider Form): NA = +14 (Armour plated and Large)
Step Four: Determine Supernatural Armour (Subtract Natural Armour from Hit Dice)
eg.
- Succubus (6HD): SnA = +6
- Graz'zt (62HD): SnA = +60 (62 - 2)
- Vrock (8HD): SnA = +3 (8 - 5)
- Orcus (44HD*): SnA = +39 (44 - 5)
- Balor (13HD): SnA = +4 (13 - 9)
- Demogorgon (66HD): = +51 (66 - 15)
- Glabrezu (10HD): = +0 (10 - 21)
- Lolth (Spider Form) (60HD): +46 (60 - 14)
*Current WotC version.
Step Five: Reduce Dexterity (subtract Natural Armour from Dexterity), Minimum 10.
eg.
- Succubus: no change
- Graz'zt: -2 Dex
- Vrock: -5 Dex
- Orcus: -5 Dex
- Balor: -9 Dex
- Demogorgon: -15 Dex
- Glabrezu: -21 Dex
- Lolth (Spider Form): -14 Dex
Any comments!?
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