The Worship Points System

[poilbrun]

I like the idea of resilience a lot, and so, I seem to now like the idea of separate NA and SnA...

If the whole book is as convincing as you were about this matter, you'll soon receive worship points yourself as I'll be converted to your "religion"!

 

[Zelda Themelin]

Hi Krusty,

I absolutely agree CR-system over 20 should be written. Current one just doesn't hold water, and imo it breaks at about CR 14, but that's matter of opinion.

Supernatural/natural armor idea as such is great, but dex-penalities makes me think. After all, natural is not something as unpractical as jogging around in plate mail.

When you think of insects, some of them have really 'heavy armor', and I don't think they suffer from lack of dex, neither do all lizard-types. Other factors than armor affect this also IMO, though humanoid-form demans certain need of flexibility when doing certain sort of manipulation, so it effectially comes out as form of lowerered dex. Not all critters suffer from this terrible inpractibility of being humanoid. Also, in this line of thinking armor also makes creature more heavy, and if it becomes more heavy, should it also get stronger to compensate it's 'new' mass?

Anti magic field, at least when casted at mortal level does not hamper artifact/demi-god-like power, I think this should include superernatural armor of demon-lord, or comparing goes awry. After all, many minor artifacts are really pretty meekly.

Antimagic is also often used tactic in games I play my PC-mostly by enemies, and amazingly our parti's necromancer lady also. Yep it takes away her magic, that's why it is called 'tactic', not something used all the time.

 

[Kalanyr]

Hello again UK, (I was Kaiju Orcus for a while on the old boards)

I have a problem with SnA vs NA. The problem is that creatures like Balor lose basic AC (in your original method by loss of dex bonus and in your second are losing even more since a Balor has a mere +13 to AC and a total of 22 AC vs the original 30 this is a significant difference allowing a fighter of that level to connect with 1 or 2 extra attacks per round ).

I also don't see why natural armor should reduce dex most natural creatures with high natural armor (really heavy scales/thick hide etc) have an average or worse dex in the first place, I think creatures like Balor & Pit Fiends are suppossed to be supernaturally agile and so have the rather high ,for a creature of their size, dex mod. Also the Balor in particular should have a higher Dex score merely so they can use their Ambi-Dexterity feat (pre-req: 15 Dex) not an even lower dexteriy.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi poil brun mate!

I like the idea of resilience a lot, and so, I seem to now like the idea of separate NA and SnA...

Glad you like the idea!

The option is relatively simple to introduce, and fairly rules-lite. Above all, its optional.

If the whole book is as convincing as you were about this matter, you'll soon receive worship points yourself as I'll be converted to your "religion"!

I am sure you will be impressed!

I appreciate the love and/or worship!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Krusty

Hi Zelda mate!

I had another look at the photos of your pets in the other thread! Very cute!

I absolutely agree CR-system over 20 should be written. Current one just doesn't hold water, and imo it breaks at about CR 14, but that's matter of opinion.

Glad you agree with me!

Supernatural/natural armor idea as such is great, but dex-penalities makes me think. After all, natural is not something as unpractical as jogging around in plate mail.

True, which was why I added the Minimum Dexterity 10 'clause' since no creature would evolve natural armour that gave it a Dexterity penalty.

When you think of insects, some of them have really 'heavy armor', and I don't think they suffer from lack of dex

Again true, however what is to say such insects wouldn't be faster without this 'armour'!?

Have a look at this site, can't get the direct link to the page I want to show, but click on the 'Science' button on the sidebar and then 'Size Matters'. Near the bottom Mike discusses 'B-Movies': Giant Insects, a 50ft. Woman and Godzilla.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/index.html

It sort of skirts on ground we a covering.

neither do all lizard-types.

Reptiles are generally known for their fast reactions though! Again my point would be that without such 'armour' they would undoubtedly be faster still!

eg. Lizardfolk have a Dex 10 (average) and a Natural Armour +5 (equal to chainmail). Without such natural armour you could assume they would have Dex 15.

Other factors than armor affect this also IMO, though humanoid-form demands certain need of flexibility when doing certain sort of manipulation, so it effectially comes out as form of lowerered dex. Not all critters suffer from this terrible inpractibility of being humanoid.

True, but they are all governed by physics except where supernatural abilities 'bend/break/circumnavigate' them.

Or I suppose Simon would counter 'The Reality Factor'!?

Also, in this line of thinking armor also makes creature more heavy, and if it becomes more heavy, should it also get stronger to compensate it's 'new' mass?

True, but I have not added armour to creatures, merely redirected its application (from deflecting attacks to absorbing damage).

Anti magic field, at least when casted at mortal level does not hamper artifact/demi-god-like power, I think this should include superernatural armor of demon-lord, or comparing goes awry. After all, many minor artifacts are really pretty meekly.

Forget, what you have previously heard about Anti-Magic not being effective against Demigods or better. It is!

Even a deity immune to sixth-level or lower spells would be affected by Anti-Magic since it is not a magical suppression but an 'anti'-magic one.

Antimagic is also often used tactic in games I play my PC-mostly by enemies, and amazingly our parti's necromancer lady also. Yep it takes away her magic, that's why it is called 'tactic', not something used all the time.

Risky business that tactic though!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again UK, (I was Kaiju Orcus for a while on the old boards)

Hey Kalanyr mate!

I have a problem with SnA vs NA.

By all means fire away! But remember this is merely an optional rule within the WPS!

The problem is that creatures like Balor lose basic AC (in your original method by loss of dex bonus and in your second are losing even more since a Balor has a mere +13 to AC and a total of 22 AC vs the original 30 this is a significant difference allowing a fighter of that level to connect with 1 or 2 extra attacks per round ).

True. However, you are forgetting that while the Balor might get hit more often its going to take far less damage when it does!

Remember that using this option a Balor would suffer 9 less damage every hit!

eg. Lets use the 16th-level Fighter example from the DMG (I consider the Balor more like CR16 myself).

Damage is 1d10+9 (Avg. 14.5)

Normally should hit a Balor with about 2 attacks (29 damage).

However, under this new option would probably connect with all 4 attacks (but deal only 22 damage).

I also don't see why natural armor should reduce dex most natural creatures with high natural armor (really heavy scales/thick hide etc) have an average or worse dex in the first place,

This was why I imposed the Minimum 10 Dexterity 'clause'. (See my previous post)

I think creatures like Balor & Pit Fiends are suppossed to be supernaturally agile and so have the rather high, for a creature of their size, dex mod. Also the Balor in particular should have a higher Dex score merely so they can use their Ambi-Dexterity feat (pre-req: 15 Dex) not an even lower dexteriy.

In my opinion Balors should not have the Ambidexterity Feat. They can still have Two-Weapon Fighting and you could substitute Weapon Focus for Ambidexterity.

The most obvious example would seem to be the Balrog in Fellowship of the Ring. Neither what I would call Ambidextrous or supernaturally agile! Even though that was undoubtedly a 20+HD Balor given its 'Huge' size.

Of course thats just my opinion.

 

[Kalanyr]

True. However, you are forgetting that while the Balor might get hit more often its going to take far less damage when it does!

Remember that using this option a Balor would suffer 9 less damage every hit!

So your using NA as both an addition to AC and a special form of DR? If so I can see the merits of this system. If its only used as one or the other things like Balor under your system could end up as chop-suey fairly easily, since if its not added to AC then people will start doing major power attacks, Two-weapon fighting, etc to overcome the lost damage and will still be hitting at an effective AC lower than the originals. Of course if its used as both then creatures with SnA already have a weakness vs creatures with NA so their armour disappearing in an AM zone seems like overkill.

I might have missed something here its just what sprang to mind.



With reference to the Dex of Balor and Pit Fiends, I think that may be more based on the incredible grace (though this might be a reference to a high charisma instead of dex) of demons/devils in some myths and legends as opposed to any of Tolkiens work. But thats IMO.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi mate!

So your using NA as both an addition to AC and a special form of DR? If so I can see the merits of this system.

No.

If its only used as one or the other things like Balor under your system could end up as chop-suey fairly easily, since if its not added to AC then people will start doing major power attacks, Two-weapon fighting, etc to overcome the lost damage and will still be hitting at an effective AC lower than the originals. Of course if its used as both then creatures with SnA already have a weakness vs creatures with NA so their armour disappearing in an AM zone seems like overkill.

I might have missed something here its just what sprang to mind.

Technically Power Attack needs to be suspended using this change to armour. One of the reasons I feel this should be kept as an variant rule - since I don't like removing options from people.

Two-Weapon Fighting is unaffected.

Natural Armour functions in an Anti-Magic Field whereas Supernatural Armour does not. Supernatural Armour does not affect Dexterity (nor appearance) however.

 

[Ashardalon]

This is Knight Otu speaking

Hello, Upper_Krust!

Sorry for not posting, but I have problems with my confirmation mail (I have already contacted Morrus about this).

Regarding the optional rules changes you want to add:

Resilience - I like the idea, and it is certainly logical

CRs above 20 - I absolutely agree with you!

Supernatural Armor - I see the logic behind it, but I'm not fully convinced yet - Could it be that the Dexterity Reduction might be a bit too harsh? Maybe it should be only half the value of the Natural armor Bonus? But obviously you thought more about it than I did, so my thinking may be flawed at this point.

Regarding the Perry Rhodan thread - it will come once the registration problems are solved

One last thing - Five stars for Upper_Krust

 

[Upper_Krust]

This is Knight Otu speaking

Hello, Upper_Krust!

Hey! Knight Otu mate! Or should that be Ashardalon!?

I trust your studies have been going well!?

Sorry for not posting, but I have problems with my confirmation mail (I have already contacted Morrus about this).

No apologies necessary, you know that!

Regarding the optional rules changes you want to add:

Resilience - I like the idea, and it is certainly logical

Thanks.

CRs above 20 - I absolutely agree with you!

Yep.

Supernatural Armor - I see the logic behind it, but I'm not fully convinced yet - Could it be that the Dexterity Reduction might be a bit too harsh? Maybe it should be only half the value of the Natural armor Bonus? But obviously you thought more about it than I did, so my thinking may be flawed at this point.

I seem to have become sidetracked over the past few days (no doubt due to my influenza) and forgotten why I initially wanted to introduce Supernatural Armour in the first place*. I will sort this all out tonight, then return to the more important matter at hand.

*The problem was that I didn't want (for example) Graz'zt to have a higher natural armour than Demogorgon. (My reasoning being that If Graz'zt and Demogorgon have the same NA, Graz'zt can subsequently benefit from both Armour and Magic Items to a greater extent than his rival; and also has a much higher Dexterity)

Simple your thinking, just make Demogorgons natural armour higher. Unfortunately this doesn't work. Since in the WPS 'Natural Armour' can be augmented/manifested by deities. For the purposes of this example lets say both Demogorgon and Graz'zt are Lesser Powers. Two peers therefore have the capability to raise their NA to the same amount. Yet Demogorgon is clearly the more heavily natural armoured of the two.

The solution was clearly to split Natural Armour into Natural Armour and SuperNatural Armour.

But doing this means having to determine clear parameters for both. There must be some reason why Graz'zt wouldn't want to augment his Natural Armour - the most obvious solution is that NA reduces Dexterity (the same as how I advocate Armour should be treated).

Enough rambling for the moment (Smallville is on in a minute ), see you all later!

Regarding the Perry Rhodan thread - it will come once the registration problems are solved.

Looking forward to it!

One last thing - Five stars for Upper_Krust

Seems someone only felt it was worthy of 4 stars (or less) which presumably means five stars is unnattainable now.

Perhaps they will respond and comment on what they were unhappy about!?