The Worship Points System

[Upper_Krust]

Hey there mate!

Here is why the insect wouldn't be faster without its armor. It would be dead. The armor of an insect is also it skeleton. Without its 'armor' it couldn't do simple function such as breathing let alone moving. All insects have Exoskeletons as opposed to humans that have endoskeletons. I also remember a small bit from biology class in high school (that has been long enough ago i wish could forget more of it, hehe) that some creatures with exoskeletons have joints constructed in ways that are just not terribly possible for creatures with endoskeletons (sorry can't remember specifics.)

This is why i'm against dex penalties to SOME creatures with natural armor.

You can't use Fine Size creatures for such a basis. Remember D&D is Medium-Size-centric.

If you assume the following:

Skin Type

Normal = +0
Leathery/Tough/Blubbery = +2
Scaly = +5
Carapace = +8

Size

Medium Size skin type x1, +0
Large Size skin type x1.5, +2
Huge Size skin type x2, +5
Gargantuan Size skin type x3, +9
Colossal skin type x4, +14

Then the reverse also makes sense.

Small Size skin type -2, divide by 1.5
Tiny Size skin type -5, divide by 2
Diminutive Size skin type -9, divide by 3
Fine Size skin type -14, divide by 4

eg. A Small character wearing platemail will only receive an Armour bonus of 4 NOT 8. Equally Dexterity would also be reduced by 4, NOT 8.

So nothing of diminutive or fine size will have (literal) natural armour good enough to absorb damage from opponents using the current damage rules (even if they wear platemail for their size it wouldn't prevent 1hp damage).

Even if you assume an ant is effectively wearing platemail (for its size) for the purposes of how we rate damage and armour it won't have any bearing when the game mechanics are medium size-centric!

Also a byproduct of size is:

Small Size +2 Dex
Tiny Size +5 Dex
Diminutive Size +9 Dex
Fine Size +14 Dex

Also who is to say that natural armor should make you look like a freak.

I already admitted that was a hasty generalisation by me and that the properties of the skin would be more important than any cosmetic idiosyncracies.

I'm of the opinion that its nor nessisarily just the skin type that makes up the natural armor but also the composition of the muscle tissue, bones, and other things under the skin as well.

I agree for the most, not sure about bones though.

Look at Wolverine with that adamantine skeleton of his. I for one think that should give him some amount of natural armor.

Not sure I would agree there.

Firstly Wolverines skin is easily injured (his flesh is relatively normal) his two main features are Adamantium Skeleton (with claws) and Fast Healing.

Adamantium Skeleton: the easiest way of implementing this would seem to be to make him immune to critical hits!? Then again its a tricky one to decide upon.

Fast Healing*: maybe 10.

(*certainly not as good as the Hulks regeneration! I remember reading a story where Wolverine cut out the Hulks heart and the Hulk came back mere moments later and ripped his head off - or some form of dismemberment anyway, it was in a 'What If' comic)

 

[-Eä-]

Greetings folks!

Actually, I tested your rules for armour yesterday, and while most of it seems nice, it needs some refinement. It was tested with two 6th level characters that I had to fight different types of opponents.

1.) The process slows combat a little. (This is not a big issue, but one needs to account for it). Taking those reduction rules makes combats last longer (due to calculating absorption and less damage)

2.) Ranged weapons are next to useless using these rules, certainly crossbows are. The limited strength bonus added to damage and the fact that you can't use Power Attack with ranged weapons makes this so.

3.) The feat Power Attack will be essential to almost any character, but I believe _this_ is a good thing, as it allows for more tactics during combat.

4.) Some characters will have severe difficulties versus some types of opponents. Rogues will be much less efficient combat-wise now, as a rogue will probably not do any damage to a fighter with full plate at all (at lower levels)


And now some questions:

Is it correct that resillience applies to each attack? (We did it this way)

Is magic damage affected by this ability? (We tried no, but magic was not a problem anyhow)

If one hits, should one make 1 point of damage whatever the resillience? (This should at least apply to ranged attacks)


That's all for now... Unfortunatelly I haven't been able to devise an XP formula yet, but hopefully I will.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Greetings folks!

Hey -Eä- mate!

Actually, I tested your rules for armour yesterday, and while most of it seems nice, it needs some refinement.

...I suppose its possible!?

It was tested with two 6th level characters that I had to fight different types of opponents.

Okay.

1.) The process slows combat a little. (This is not a big issue, but one needs to account for it). Taking those reduction rules makes combats last longer (due to calculating absorption and less damage)

True. Although once you have used the system a few times it becomes second nature.

2.) Ranged weapons are next to useless using these rules, certainly crossbows are. The limited strength bonus added to damage and the fact that you can't use Power Attack with ranged weapons makes this so.

Interesting point!

I remember when we used to have this rule in 2nd Ed. that Simon always allowed piercing weapons to inherantly halve the armour bonus.

eg. Full Plate would only reduce damage by +4 against missiles/spears (all piercing weapons).

So this still seems like a fair solution.

Personally I am of the opinion that (yet again) X-bows 'got the shaft'.

and the fact that you can't use Power Attack with ranged weapons makes this so.

Unless of course you have the ranged equivalent: 'Skill Shot' Feat!

3.) The feat Power Attack will be essential to almost any character, but I believe _this_ is a good thing, as it allows for more tactics during combat.

This is an important point.

Initially I was not convinced allowing the Power Attack Feat to work (with this optional Armour rule) was a good idea.

But now (after a bit of studying) I am of the opinion that it doesn't affect the game adversely at all.

4.) Some characters will have severe difficulties versus some types of opponents. Rogues will be much less efficient combat-wise now, as a rogue will probably not do any damage to a fighter with full plate at all (at lower levels)

That'll teach them to stand toe to toe with Fighters. Emphasise use of sneak attack too!

And now some questions:

Sure, fire away!

Is it correct that resillience applies to each attack? (We did it this way)

Yes.

Is magic damage affected by this ability? (We tried no, but magic was not a problem anyhow)

Yes and no.

Physical Damage is affected, such as Acid, Cold, Electricity, Fire, Sonic damage.

- Electrical attacks won't be affected by Metal Armour

Magic Missile is unaffected as are Brilliant Energy Weapons.

If one hits, should one make 1 point of damage whatever the resillience? (This should at least apply to ranged attacks)

No.

That's all for now...

Take care mate, and thanks for the help!

Unfortunatelly I haven't been able to devise an XP formula yet, but hopefully I will.

To be honest I am not sure its worth it!? I think the initial formula is the wrong side of complicated for most people! Myself included.

 

[S'mon]

BTW if you use 'armour reduces damage' you should ignore armour for critical hits, of course. And as U_K says, some weapons should reduce armour effectiveness, plate armour only DR 4 vs crossbows. To compemsate for this the critical threat range of the weapon should also be halved or critical damage reduced, so crossbows become 20/x2 and bows 20/x2 as well, with armour-piercing arrows: 20/x3 is fine for sheaf arrows, but then armour should be fully effective.

 

[Anubis]

First off, I would place Wolverines "Fast Healing" ability at about 30, not 10. Take a look at the movie "X-Men". Wolverine is in a truck crash and flies through the windshield and fifty feet through the air and lands hard, yet he gets up and is almost instantly completely recovered.

Moving on . . . I think all the discussion and the things that have been brought up about what would need to be changed under the optional rules UK has presented is proof enough that it is too complex to be usable. When people game, they don't wanna be in a math class and don't wanna have to figure out a bunch of numbers.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Simon

Is it just me or has everyone been getting 'boards temporarily busy' signs sporadically?

And as U_K says, some weapons should reduce armour effectiveness, plate armour only DR 4 vs crossbows.

I would just determine Piercing weapons across the board halve armour effectiveness.

BTW if you use 'armour reduces damage' you should ignore armour for critical hits, of course.

Do we really need to I am wondering!?

To compemsate for this the critical threat range of the weapon should also be halved or critical damage reduced, so crossbows become 20/x2 and bows 20/x2 as well, with armour-piercing arrows: 20/x3 is fine for sheaf arrows, but then armour should be fully effective.

I am not sure if this will be necessary either in 3rd Ed!?

I would just retain criticals as they are.

Of course you could devise different arrows if you wished.

Other weapon types generally do more damage 'pound for pound' so it sort of evens things up that piercing weapons bypass armour more effectively.

If you wanted to fully balance things up I would suggest:

Slashing Crit 17-20 x1.5
Bludgeoning Crit 19-20 x2
Piercing Crit 20 x3

But I don't really think thats necessary.

 

[Buddha the DM]

Is it just me or has everyone been getting 'boards temporarily busy' signs sporadically?

I have. Usually refreshing once or twice will let me slip by it.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Anubis mate!

First off, I would place Wolverines "Fast Healing" ability at about 30, not 10. Take a look at the movie "X-Men". Wolverine is in a truck crash and flies through the windshield and fifty feet through the air and lands hard, yet he gets up and is almost instantly completely recovered.

Its been a while since I saw the X-men film. I seem to recall he doesn't get up instantly though, and probably wasn't at 100% when he did.

Fast Healing 10 would mean he recovered 100hp in one minute. If he was down for 30 seconds he would regain 50hp. Not sure what his hit points would be to begin with or what damage the impact caused but would likely have killed a normal human so we can assume he would have been at negative hp for a time.

Then again his its all pure conjecture without having the 'facts' in front of me. I'm not a big X-men fan (except for the Juggernaut). I prefer Marvels cosmic heavy hitters - as if you couldn't guess!

Moving on . . . I think all the discussion and the things that have been brought up about what would need to be changed under the optional rules UK has presented is proof enough that it is too complex to be usable.

To be honest the difficulty almost certainly comes from not having all the facts in front of you in one place (page).

I would imagine anyone trying to glean the idea peice by peice from multiple posts in this thread might pose some difficulty but I am sure when they just look at the addendum when I write it up (with easy to see examples) it will be mere childs play to incorporate or not. As I have said from the start - its optional*!

*But worth investigating, otherwise you know I wouldn't even suggest it!

When people game, they don't wanna be in a math class and don't wanna have to figure out a bunch of numbers.

Don't be confusing this with -Ea-'s formula!

This is me remember! Keeping it simple is my mantra!

Trust me, I know what I'm doing!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi there!

I have. Usually refreshing once or twice will let me slip by it.

Cheers Buddha!

Glad to know its not just me!

...and thanks for the tip!

 

[Buddha the DM]

Not a problem man. Btw I happen to like your way of handling the effectiveness of armor. Ea's formula gave me a headache.