D&D 4E The WotC designers will be bashing 4e once 5e is announced . . .

Raven Crowking said:
Indeed.

And it is amusing to note how many of the older edition things that 4e seems to be returning to (in terms of art, flat XP for monsters, etc.) that many of those posters disparaged when they came from earlier editions (but now seem perfectly fine, or even excited about!).

Funny how times change. ;)

RC

How will we now model LotR and Shadowfax with D&D, if the pokemount's going away? :cool:
 

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Maggan said:
I have to ask, why was it insulting to those players? It's not as if the video portrayed them, the ones who could think creatively and have fun, as ignorant. If a DM don't have a problem with the Grapple rules, why on earth, would he be insulted by a video stating that other people have had, and continue having, problems with the grapple rules?

/M

Because that video portrayed this one group as the "archetypical" group, essentially saying "look what problems this edition caused for a group playing it", poking fun at not only the quirk of the respective edition, but also at the inability of the portrayed group to find a quick solution or explanation outside the game book...apart from the fact that the portrayed "problems" were not really "problems" per se. Like the 1-minute combat they spoofed in the video? Ignoring the fact that 1 minute was the maximum of a combat round, and that the 2E combat round wasn't a "1 slash, stand around for 58 seconds" concept either.

To me, the video said "Older editions were too clunky to be played out of the book, and players were too uncreative to get around those problems that WERE there, which is why you all need to buy our new, streamlined, shiny, problem-free edition". Which is, of course, only my interpretation of it, but it is also why I call it an insult.

YMWV, most certainly. :)
 

Geron Raveneye said:
YMWV, most certainly. :)

Absolutely. Maybe it's because I myself has been in all three situations, not only with AD&D, that I smile at the video.

Do you feel the same thing re The Dead Alewives, Stephen Lynch's D&D song and the movie The Gamers? Or is this especially grating because it is WotC saying it?

/M
 

DaveMage said:
The frustrating thing for me is twofold:

1) We don't really know anything yet. It's hard to appreciate the enthusiasm of the designers when we don't have all the pieces. They love the new game. I think in some ways it's even *worse* when they post their enthusiasm because it's almost like they're saying "Ha! I've got this great toy! Pity YOU can't play with it yet, but WOW is it cool!"
This isn't going to make you feel any better at all, but the exact same thing happened during the switch from 2e to 3e.

2) I don't *want* a fully revised version. As you say, 3.5 is a damn good game! I wish they would have just tweaked it a bit.
If they had, I doubt anyone would have bought it. Sometimes lots of change is much better than a little bit of change. I'd rather have them be bold and address systematic problems, whether or not they succeed (and I suspect they will), rather than slap on band-aids like they did in 3.5.
 

Maggan said:
Absolutely. Maybe it's because I myself has been in all three situations, not only with AD&D, that I smile at the video.

Do you feel the same thing re The Dead Alewives, Stephen Lynch's D&D song and the movie The Gamers? Or is this especially grating because it is WotC saying it?

/M

I can only comment on The Gamers, since it's the only of the things you list I know...but nope, it's a slight difference.

The difference is not in who's saying it, but why. The Gamers is a satire (along with KoDT or Order of the Stick, both of which I enjoy tremendously). Satire for the sake of poking fun at some of the habits and quirks of RPG players is perfectly okay with me. If I wasn't able to laugh at my own silly shortcomings now and then, I'd probably pity myself from the outside or something.

Satire for the sake of selling me something "new & shiny" is a different thing altogether. That video doesn't say "You play silly because that's how you play, and because you like it", it says "You play that way because the rules are bad and you are too uncreative to make them different, which is why you NEED to buy our new edition, because it smoothes over ALL the bumps, and comes with extra polish".

Essentially, satire to hold up a mirror to myself is okay. Satire to get a hand in my wallet isn't.

Mind that I'm not saying 4E is bad...and I can easily understand the gamer's enthusiasm that drips from every playtest report of the 4E designers right now (I know how enthusiastic I used to be towards my fellow gamers when I playtested some houserule of mine :lol: ), but this video set a tone in the marketing that colors my perception of the rest...sad but true. Probably would have been lots better if that video hadn't been one of the first to pop up here....first impressions and all that. In this case, the marketing strategy didn't make a favorable first impression on me, and thus the rest has to pay the bill for that.

I'll still wait for the actual game to get any first impressions from that, though. :)
 

Geron Raveneye said:
I can only comment on The Gamers, since it's the only of the things you list I know...but nope, it's a slight difference.

The difference is not in who's saying it, but why.

Thank you for explaining it. This is a point I can see, and understand, and to a certain degree agree with.

Cheers!

/M
 


Piratecat said:
This isn't going to make you feel any better at all, but the exact same thing happened during the switch from 2e to 3e.

If they had, I doubt anyone would have bought it. Sometimes lots of change is much better than a little bit of change. I'd rather have them be bold and address systematic problems, whether or not they succeed (and I suspect they will), rather than slap on band-aids like they did in 3.5.

I don't remember them being as boisterous during the 2e --> 3e switch. I remember Sean K Reynolds talking about how hard it was to write a 2e product after he'd been playtesteing 3e for a while, but not the "Wow! Cool!" type stuff we keep hearing in every preview. I'd rather they give us substance of how things work rather than "my character is so awsome now that it can do everything I've always wanted!" IIRC, that's what happened (more substance) with the 2e to 3e switch. I wish I could go back and see how much we knew of 3e eight months before it released vs. what we know of 4e right now.

I disagree with your second point. Lots of people bought 3.5, even though the tweaks were minor. Heck, lots of people bought 2e, and the changes from 1e were very minor. (Of course, lots of people stopped playing 2e as well, so there you go.)
 

Vigilance said:
Whoa, you mean the designers think they're IMPROVING on 3.5 with a new edition?!?!?!

OMFG SCANDAL!!!!!!!!!

No, I think he means that WotC has adopted the approach of "To sell 4e, we have to slam 3/3.5."

This is the most annoying aspect of all the 4e announcements and I couldn't put my finger on it until late last week. 4e may be a great game upon its release - there are some things I'm intrigued by but probably an equal number of info I'm not liking.

But the thing that's universally annoyed me is the "the current edition is broken" digs. It's assumed that a new edition will improve upon things. Selling the improvements primarily by attacking your current product is a mistake.

I am a sales engineer for a technology company. As such, selling new versions, releases, and upgrades is SOP. Either you continue to innovate your products or you fall behind the tech curve. However, when a new version or release is announced, you sell what's going to be improved or different - without slamming your current product . Doing so can either negatively impact your current sales, open you up to competition, or piss off your customers who purchased the current version.

Now, an RPG is not a tech sale, obviously, so let's say it's a truth that sales of a current edition tank as soon as a new edition is announced. WotC is the 800-lb. gorilla of the RPG industry so they evidently feel that competitive threats are small.

Unfortunately, in believing (rightly or wrongly) in the first two points, they've consciously or unconsciouly accomplished the 3rd outcome - pissing off some of their customers. From personal experience, sometimes you can't avoid ticking a customer off - bad news is bad news. However, almost every WotC employee I've seen quoted is selling the negatives of 3e more than they are selling the positives of 4e.

This is ultimately what is bothering me, as a customer. Converting from 3.5 to 4e? - not worth the effort. 3.5? - how clunky and time-consuming it is, it's a wonder we had any fun while playing it all these years.

And why do I think WotC is taking this approach? I can't rule out the arrogance factor when they're the king of the RPG industry. There are parallels in the tech sector (Microsoft, Cisco, etc.). I'd like to think that Mr. Mearls at least, having written so many d20/OGL products, doesn't subscribe to that. So my suspicion is WotC has decided on who the target audience for D&D is, and many of us old-timers aren't in the demographic. They still want our money, though, hence the campaign to convince us that the current version is too cumbersome, clunky, etc. to be worth continuing.

WotC is running a business. The goal is, rightly, to turn a profit. I don't bear them ill will for trying and I do think 3.5 can be improved upon. But I think promoting 4e through negatively selling against 3.5 is a mistake. It can be a valid tactic against a competitor, but it's short sighted when you use it against yourself.

Azgulor
 

DaveMage said:
I don't remember them being as boisterous during the 2e --> 3e switch. I remember Sean K Reynolds talking about how hard it was to write a 2e product after he'd been playtesteing 3e for a while, but not the "Wow! Cool!" type stuff we keep hearing in every preview. I'd rather they give us substance of how things work rather than "my character is so awsome now that it can do everything I've always wanted!" IIRC, that's what happened (more substance) with the 2e to 3e switch. I wish I could go back and see how much we knew of 3e eight months before it released vs. what we know of 4e right now.

Having those issues of Dragon magazine, I'd say that reading through them there was a certain amount of sheer hype, but there was a lot more meat in that hype. IMHO, at least.

RC
 

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