D&D 4E The WotC designers will be bashing 4e once 5e is announced . . .

[Wanderer20]

Yep, you do...which is to be expected, since it's all dependent on the "eye of the beholder".

The same goes for what's an improvement and what not. Otherwise, we'd not have a heap of endless arguments on ENWorld alone about the merits and flaws of some things 3E instituted.

Note that I'm not saying 4E isn't an improvement. It might well be. More likely, it will be an improvement in some areas, a complete change in others, and will create at least as many divergent opinions on every detail as 3E did back in its day.

What I'm saying is that the first bit of advertisement I got gave me a bad impression of the marketing scheme for 4E, and that simply colors my perceptions of the same. And just because the designers show a lot of game designer enthusiasm for the rules they currently design doesn't mean they can't tread on some toes with the way they express it, either.
And to be honest, in some parts I'd prefer it if they simply came out and said "We're not making D&D better, we're simply going to make it different than 3E", because that's clearly what they are doing with some of the things, and let judgement if it's "better" or not come from the customer base.

/signed

 

[hexgrid]

And to be honest, in some parts I'd prefer it if they simply came out and said "We're not making D&D better, we're simply going to make it different than 3E"

WotC is lucky you don't write their marketing slogans

 

[ColonelHardisson]

WotC is lucky you don't write their marketing slogans

Yeah, no kidding. Marketing strategies aren't really the place to express insecurities and low self-esteem - "well, see, we're changing the game, hope you like it, we can't expect to make it better, so don't get your hopes up. But please buy it, huh? I mean, at least it'll be different." Reminds me of an airline marketing campaign from years ago, maybe for Eastern Airlines - "We get you there." Sounded like they were touting the bare minimum required for the job. I actually prefer to hear confidence from a company when it comes to their products being the best they can produce, rather than a noncommittal pronouncement of simply being different.

 

[ssampier]

I think it all depends on the situation. If all the other airlines were having late arrivals/cancellations, I think getting there reliably is something to be proud of.

Of course RPGs, in my mind, don't really have this kind of competition. The only competition is those not buying into 4e; your previous generation of players. You have to sell it to them. Thus, the common response is, "3.x sucks now!"

 

[Stalker0]

A huge one is monster design. I remember the early days of 3e how everyone was raving about the brilliance of "intuitive" monster stats in 3e and how "finally" monsters and PCs had the same rules governing their design.

Now they trumpet what is, essentially, a return to the monster design philosophy of AD&D 1e/2e. And everyone cheers!

Its called progress and it happens all the time. We start with X (1/2e monster design). There's a growing dissatisfaction over it, so they design Y (3e monster design). It solves some problems, but creates other ones. Dissatisfaction grows again, so now they move back to a middle ground, trying to obtain the best of both worlds.

Sometimes you have to pull away from an idea to realize its good, just like sometimes people need to try a different game system to remember why they like dnd.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Its called progress and it happens all the time.

Change is not always progress, despite the fact that many people try to sell you one as the other.


RC

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Change is not always progress, despite the fact that many people try to sell you one as the other.


RC

True. But if the change comes due to careful examination of what is, identifying problems and finding solutions for it, then it is more likely to a "progressive change". And that's what seems to be happening now. But then, in our specific case of role playing games, it is possible that some problems are a matter of personal perception, so it is possible that changes are progressive for some, but not for everyone...

 

[Raven Crowking]

True. But if the change comes due to careful examination of what is, identifying problems and finding solutions for it, then it is more likely to a "progressive change". And that's what seems to be happening now.

Frankly, we don't have enough information to know that this is the case. Given, as you say, that "in our specific case of role playing games, it is possible that some problems are a matter of personal perception, so it is possible that changes are progressive for some, but not for everyone" all we know is that the designers are saying that they see these changes as progressive.

Of course, WotC also said that 4e wasn't coming any time soon, just prior to the release announcement.

I will grant you, gratis, that at least some of these changes are progressive, but it seems to me that some of these changes are cosmetic, driven by a need to differentiate the editions enough to warrant you buying a whole new set of books, while others might seem progressive only from the narrow vantage of the designers (and those who play like the designers).

Some of the changes from 3.0 to 3.5, for instance, seem driven by the need to sell minis to me, whereas others (IMHO) were simply bad choices. They did a lot of good, perhaps, with some things, but there were some real boneheaded moves (again, IMHO) that they now seem intent on fixing (which is, in itself, a good thing).


RC

 

[D.Shaffer]

Of course, WotC also said that 4e wasn't coming any time soon, just prior to the release announcement.

...Didnt someone spend a lot of time and effort trying to find an actual quote where Wizards said this and couldnt find anything? (It ended up being someone misquoting them I believe) In any case, you might want to check your own sources before calling for the tar and feathers here.

 

[Raven Crowking]

...Didnt someone spend a lot of time and effort trying to find an actual quote where Wizards said this and couldnt find anything? (It ended up being someone misquoting them I believe) In any case, you might want to check your own sources before calling for the tar and feathers here.

When 4e was first announced, the links were on the front page of EN World. I no longer have the Search feature, so I can't locate it now, but I read it when the announcement was made.


RC