Theandric Saga OOC

On Understanding Languages

You can't understand langauges with Hermetic magic. At least, not directly.
Articulated language, whether written or spoken, is manifested in some Form in the world - Imaginem for sounds, Aquam for ink, and so on. These material representations, however, bear no meaning in of themselves. The meaning is constructed in the hearer's or reader's mind.

To understand a foreign language, then, you need an Intellego Mentem spell (or Intellego Animal to understand an animal). The problem is, that such a spell requires a target - and when you only hear the sound, you cannot use a range such as Voice or Touch, or even Sight.
A possible solution is to make avail of the senses allowed for Intellego spells (ArM5 p. 114). In this case, Hearing is required which is a +3 target. The spell Valeria is after is hence,

Ear of the Beast, InAn 25
R: Personal, D: Momentary (a brief sentence), T: Hearing
You understanad the speech of animals. Most animals have very crude thoughts and, hence, speech, but some can be very intelligent.
This spell does not allow you to speak back to the animal in its own langauge. Each animal kind has a different lanaguge, and while you can understand all you can speak none.
(Base 10 (roughly "speak with an animal"), +3 Hearing)

I do believe this is beyond your ability to spontnously cast, especially without braking a sweat.

As an aside, there is another way to understand language: you can change your mind into that of a beast, thus understanding it. This is

Harnessed Mind of the Beast, MuMe (req: An) 25
R: Personal, D: Concentration, T: Part
You change your understanding of language to that of an animal of your choice. You can understand the speech of this animal, but human languages sound like animalistic, meaningless, grunts.
(Base 15, +1 Concentration, +1 Part)

Anyways, that's my thougts on the matter. Feel free to prove me wrong. :)
 

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Yair said:
You can't understand langauges with Hermetic magic. At least, not directly.
Articulated language, whether written or spoken, is manifested in some Form in the world - Imaginem for sounds, Aquam for ink, and so on. These material representations, however, bear no meaning in of themselves. The meaning is constructed in the hearer's or reader's mind.

To understand a foreign language, then, you need an Intellego Mentem spell (or Intellego Animal to understand an animal). The problem is, that such a spell requires a target - and when you only hear the sound, you cannot use a range such as Voice or Touch, or even Sight.
A possible solution is to make avail of the senses allowed for Intellego spells (ArM5 p. 114). In this case, Hearing is required which is a +3 target. The spell Valeria is after is hence,
Yes, I agree.


Yair said:
Harnessed Mind of the Beast, MuMe (req: An) 25
R: Personal, D: Concentration, T: Part
You change your understanding of language to that of an animal of your choice. You can understand the speech of this animal, but human languages sound like animalistic, meaningless, grunts.
(Base 15, +1 Concentration, +1 Part)

Anyways, that's my thougts on the matter. Feel free to prove me wrong. :)
I agree with the underlying principle here, but I do not think this requires a +1 Part modifier. The Part target specifically refers to physical parts of an individual. The "mind" is not a physical part, and this spell is not literally Muto'ing the "brain" into that of the animal. Otherwise, this would seem to imply that all Mentem spells have to use Part and cannot use Individual.
 

Nzld said:
I agree with the underlying principle here, but I do not think this requires a +1 Part modifier. The Part target specifically refers to physical parts of an individual. The "mind" is not a physical part, and this spell is not literally Muto'ing the "brain" into that of the animal. Otherwise, this would seem to imply that all Mentem spells have to use Part and cannot use Individual.
Compare the spell to "Mind of the Beast", which is really what it's based on. The latter is a curse, changing your mind to that of a beast. That's not what you're after here - you only want to change one faculty of your mind, leaving the rest intact. I figured you could do that by affecting only Part of the mind, which is the Individual for Mentem spells.
If you don't agree with Part being appropriate, surely you agree that an ad hoc modifier should reflect that creating this effect should be harder than changing the entire mind into that of a beast? I figure that's covered very nicely by the Part target; I'm also willing to go with Individual and require a +1 or +2 ad hoc modfier for complexity and finesse.
Another way to do it would be a Rego requisite, I imagine.

Do you intend me to play out Matthius's reply to you as an NPC?
 

Yair, you may as well go ahead and post for Mattihus, telling what he knows of the village and it's connection to the lycanthropes, unless you want to send it to me to post for him.
 

Yair said:
Compare the spell to "Mind of the Beast", which is really what it's based on. The latter is a curse, changing your mind to that of a beast. That's not what you're after here - you only want to change one faculty of your mind, leaving the rest intact. I figured you could do that by affecting only Part of the mind, which is the Individual for Mentem spells.
If you don't agree with Part being appropriate, surely you agree that an ad hoc modifier should reflect that creating this effect should be harder than changing the entire mind into that of a beast? I figure that's covered very nicely by the Part target; I'm also willing to go with Individual and require a +1 or +2 ad hoc modfier for complexity and finesse.
Another way to do it would be a Rego requisite, I imagine.
I can't agree with you here. You are selecting a Base 15, which is designed to "utterly change a person's mind", then tacking on an additional magnitude to not utterly change it. If you feel a modifier is required (I don't), then it should be tacked on to a lower base. The bases for Mentem show that it is easier to affect only specific aspects of the mind than it is to affect the entire mind. I would say that completely rewriting a person's faculty for language is more in line with Base 10 "completely rewrite a person's memories".

Making oneself think like an animal seems to me to be a pretty inherent capability of MuMe(An). The Animal requisite is enough to facilitate this. I can't see where there is any added complexity involved. Perhaps a Finesse roll could be used to determine how well one interprets what is being "said", but that's about it. There are very few spells that have "ad hoc" modifiers to them, and that is with good reason.

And I don't see where Rego would be appropriate.
 

Hm, I admit I am not really following the details of the arguement, but it seems to me that it would be simple to think like an animal, but like a magical creature such as a lycanthope? May be a bit different / more difficult...
 

MummyKitty said:
Hm, I admit I am not really following the details of the arguement, but it seems to me that it would be simple to think like an animal, but like a magical creature such as a lycanthope? May be a bit different / more difficult...
The spell isn't designed to allow you to "think" like the animal... merely to understand its communication. Yair's description has implied that the howling heard by our characters is how wolves talking would sound if they were to talk. This implies to me that the lycanthropes are communicating as wolves and thus, a normal wolf would be able to understand them. If, on the other hand, they are just in the form of a wolf and are only able to communicate amongst themselves in some form of "werewolf language" (i.e. normal wolves do not understand them, either), then I don't think this spell would be feasible anyway. I think, in that case, only the direct Intellego Mentem would be viable.

Either way, it is beyond Valeria's capability.
 

Nzld said:
I can't agree with you here. ..snip..
Alright, you convinced me. That's a Base 10 and Individual target, then. Much easier, at level 15. You can drop it to 10 for a Momentary spell. That's getting close to feasible.

And yes, I did mean to imply it was "wolf langauge", a mind of a wold would suffice.
 
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A new player, Sphynx, will be joining us shortly (or so I hope). That will bring the number of magi to 5, so I will be expanding the grog roster and vis stocks. Details will be coming shortly...

I won't be recruiting any more players. I reckon 5 is more or less ideal, I don't want more.
 


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