Themes article up

If you do that, you can take Beast Protector as a feat. And that gives you opportunity attacks. A lot of them.
I'm kind of confused because IIRC this only triggers on when an enemy makes a melee attack against the beast. Quite frankly, any enemy that is dumb enough to attack the beast companion with a melee attack is wasting a *lot* of time and effort unless forced to. Bursts and blasts trivially kill the beast companion off, while affecting PCs most of the time as well. Unless there is literally no other target, I can't remember the last time I made a melee attack against a beast companion after heroic tier. There is literally no point to attacking it unless you are forced to actually do so (as it's opportunity attacks suck).

The fact the beast is like a giant cat, feebly scratching away at any monster at paragon or above makes it very little threat*. You're going to have to tell me how you make it threatening enough for any paragon or epic monster to even bother with (except for including in bursts). I guess if you immobilize an enemy and put the beast adjacent you might get an attack? That's a lot of effort for a maybe.
It's the Beast Companion that puts the Sharpshooter Paragon Path right up there with Battlefield Archer with all the Prime Shot feats.
It does? I'm... okay, I'm just not seeing that frankly. Why is anything bothering to melee attack the beast companion? I mean if they are doing that, the beast is being MUCH more useful than I would ever anticipate! In fact the instant any creature wastes its standard action on the beast attacking it like that, you've had a major victory in the first place!

Have I missed something here?
I don´t remeber the rule that makes all attacks hitting automatically from level 2 on. Can you quote that please.
Traps and hazards often simply inflict automatic damage (or incorporate such effects). Even when they don't, because the minions defenses don't scale they are practically hit on everything but a 1 very quickly, which might as well automatically kill them. This is why they have such huge problems with auras in particular.

*Now that I think of it, this reminds me of how pre-MM3 monsters felt like against PCs!
 
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The problem with the BMR is the BMR powers are absolutely terrible. In reality, you're a ranger with a pet that serves as a flanking buddy and does little else. That is kind of useful, especially for a bow ranger as it lets you have a melee presence as well - but it's also not actually very good in terms of concept. All the beast really does is occupy a square for flanking but the damage is miserable so you never ever attack with it (or take beast master ranger powers). I can see the benefit there, but it really takes some work and MM3 creatures (due to the companions poor defenses) can dismantle them easily with bursts/blasts. Certain creatures can even turn them into a liability due to always hitting it with their powers.

A little side note.

I never played a BMR, but if the main concern is low damage output and low defenses, could it be errataed/house ruled with a simple flat +2 damage/+1 to defenses (maybe per tier per tier) to all beast powers?

Not that a house rule is a good excuse for poor design, but, honestly, in your opinion, would then a BMR be better?

Sorry for going OT, I'm just curious. :D
 

I would absolutely LOVE beast companions to get inherent bonus like additions to their damage. So they got an enhancement bonus like increase and critical damage. So a bear say hits like a dump truck on a critical dealing d12s, while a wolf might deal d8s and perhaps knock prone (this is just off the top of my head). It's not everything they need of course, but at least it's an easy start and already emulates something in the game already (that works pretty well as it is).

I am actually already tempted to institute such a rule in my own games. The sentinel druids companion for example will scale poorly into the later stages of my Eberron campaign. Adding an inherent bonus increase for damage rolls and critical hit bonus dice will keep combined attack feeling more relevant. It's not much of a problem right now, but later on I think this is something I will have to consider.
 
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Traps and hazards often simply inflict automatic damage (or incorporate such effects). Even when they don't, because the minions defenses don't scale they are practically hit on everything but a 1 very quickly, which might as well automatically kill them. This is why they have such huge problems with auras in particular.

The worst level is level 4. This is not nearly autohit... I don´t say there is no issue, but that was quite a bit of an exaggeration.

I really would have liked a line, that explicitely makes the cat favoured by some goddess of luck... allowing to evade bursts and blasts and auras. Have a damage treshold or something like that. (btw, the shaman spirit needs his treshold adjusted with the new monster damage scaling...)

I just notice, once again, underestimating the utility of a pet. Some people are gladly exchanging power vs utility.

And once again, we are at the point, where a legitimate criticism about 4e - the lack of a possibility to make flavour choices over combat choices - was adressed, and wotc beeing flamed for that.
Why can´t people just ignore "underpowered" choices and let people who like them use them? Overpowered choices or choices that don´t give any benefit for reduced combat utility are much more problematic. (The seeker issue or the shade racial power are things I understand. The shade racial mainly, because it does not work as intended and really needs a clarification/update...)
 

I really would have liked a line, that explicitely makes the cat favoured by some goddess of luck... allowing to evade bursts and blasts and auras. Have a damage treshold or something like that. (btw, the shaman spirit needs his treshold adjusted with the new monster damage scaling...)
I agree, that would be an obvious solution and again: I wonder why that wasn't put into its rules in the first place if that was the intent.

On the shaman spirit companion, I absolutely 100% disagree. For numerous reasons as well. Firstly, spirit companions cannot be targeted by bursts and blasts in the first place. This automatically makes them one of the most resilient features of its type in 4E. They are also not harmed by auras, so a creature to get rid of them the companion has to specifically be targeted by a melee or ranged attack. This is a huge victory for the shaman. Much like the BMR above, if a monster wastes its standard action attacking it you have scored a *huge* victory. That's damage not being directed at anything important.

Additionally, the spirit is very easily resummoned and in fact by being dismissed it can be a considerable advantage in many ways. So I have no sympathy for the spirit companion and it works extremely well. If it could be killed by bursts or blasts I would agree. As it can't if a creature uses its standard action on the spirit with an attack, the creature has used its turn in a terrible manner making a huge victory for the PCs.
And once again, we are at the point, where a legitimate criticism about 4e - the lack of a possibility to make flavour choices over combat choices - was adressed, and wotc beeing flamed for that.
They failed spectacularly. Had the rest of the themes been like that I agree. As it is with something as mechanically strong as Order Adept in there, the deficiencies in themes like the animal master are all the more glaring. If the themes were all of that kind of level, adding minor mechanical benefits and something else utility wise I would agree. But when you have such a gigantic mechanical gulf between them, then they fail.

Terrible options are as bad as overpowered options. They clutter the CB and can lead new players into making poor choices - making them feel marginalized at the table when they soon find themselves rendered very ineffective. I mean we're literally talking about something that is at your DMs mercy entirely, vs. something that is almost one of the best examples of power creep in 4E!
 

The problem with the BMR is the BMR powers are absolutely terrible. In reality, you're a ranger with a pet that serves as a flanking buddy and does little else. That is kind of useful, especially for a bow ranger as it lets you have a melee presence as well - but it's also not actually very good in terms of concept. All the beast really does is occupy a square for flanking but the damage is miserable so you never ever attack with it (or take beast master ranger powers). I can see the benefit there, but it really takes some work and MM3 creatures (due to the companions poor defenses) can dismantle them easily with bursts/blasts. Certain creatures can even turn them into a liability due to always hitting it with their powers.

You see, I like my options to actually be options and not traps. The BMR is a gigantic example of the perfect trap option in 4E. You take it and then ignore every power that has to do with it in the game. It's literally something there to occupy a square and provide an extra source for placing quarry (which is why I see bow rangers use them). In every other way it's a trap option and grossly inferior to the other two fighting styles. If you optimize it, which is literally just taking it for the quarry and flanking benefits it is useful in a way. Otherwise someone who takes it and the powers will basically be walking right into an enormous trap.

That is poor design and why I rag it. Plus all the other styles are flat out superior options. Gaining CA is easy enough mitigating the beasts ability to flank as being *that* great, it can't do jack to monsters with its attacks so it's irrelevant for that and defensively it's a bust. If you're a bow ranger I can *really* see the advantage it provides with quarry. Now that is unquestionable to me, but is it *really* worth giving up some of the ridiculous prime shot feats and +1 accuracy? It's really not.

Well, I have some experience with melee BMR build. It is better than you portray it. The real problem is that you don't give up much over a TBF build to get the beast. That beast is also handier in combat than you give it credit for. If the beast's attacks were pumped up to high damage it actually can get kind of out of hand pretty quick. For one thing at epic the beast's attack is effectively a minor action at-will for the character, which if it were on a par with other attacks would get outrageous.

As for beast powers. Yeah, they're not really mostly all that interesting. There are a couple of them you can do some decent stuff with but in general they're not that useful unless you're going for something more like an off-role controller/defender kind of build, in which case you can justify several of them. The beast simply never was a feature that was designed to crank out damage, it is more of a utility and control feature. I think they COULD go somewhat in the other direction with it at this point though.

That brings up the last observation however, which is that BMR in the context of PHB1 builds makes a lot more sense design-wise. Since then emphasis has shifted more and more towards certain types of optimization and optimized play style that doesn't focus on the kinds of things that BMR generally does. It isn't a bad option AT ALL, it is just not getting quite the same add-ons that other builds are.

BMR isn't a trap option at all, it simply doesn't work in the way people seem to insist that it should work. If you go with it and play to its strengths it works quite well and outperforms a wide range of other builds that you don't hear a lot of bitching about.

This is also all ignoring all the amazing out of combat potentialities of the beast itself, which are quite substantial and which really only the sentinel has anything close to equivalent to. Honestly, while ranger is very thematically appropriate for a beast master sentinel clearly points out that the ranger class design wasn't terribly well suited mechanically to the purpose of making an "I fight through my animal friend" kind of setup. The nice thing is, we do have sentinel now, so that niche has a perfectly nice option. BMR is still useful though depending on exactly what you need and unless you're goal is that extra tip top bit of added DPR at high levels at the cost of all else you aren't gimping yourself.

Which kind of ties back to the whole theme subject. Perceived disparities in various options like Animal Master really go back to the ancient and perpetual tension between flexibility and specialization. High degrees of specialization in combat get high marks from optimizers, but a high degree of flexibility gets high marks from players with other goals. They are by definition somewhat opposed to each other and no amount of design tweaking is going to entirely remove that, aside from simply going back to AD&D era class design (which Essentials isn't even in the ballpark of doing).
 

AbdulAlhazred said:
BMR isn't a trap option at all, it simply doesn't work in the way people seem to insist that it should work.
I don't mean to cut down your post of rather valid points to this alone, but this is the crux of it for me. The ranger is a striker. This is his job. He should be - first and foremost - a striker who deals damage. People who insist that it should work in being an effective option for dealing damage are 100% right. That's exactly what it should be doing and what it fails in doing. This is again, what makes it a total trap option because it performs very poorly when you actually take the powers. I am well aware of the utility of the BMR, but it's failure in the actual role of the class is extremely problematic.

This is why I dislike the animal master as well. It's design is confused because like the BMR it has no idea what it's trying to do. It might get relegated to a pure flavor pet, but it's strictly worse than other options making it a trap for newer players. Advanced players might be able to get a lot out of it, such as those who realize the BMR is inherently terrible but the pet has its uses for occasionally meatshielding, sometimes flanking and the quarry advantage it provides.

If 4E didn't demonstrate time and time again you can build a class with solid mechanics and achieve certain themes effectively I wouldn't be so harsh. The slayer and thief are great examples of having very simple classes to play, that are incredibly effective even against their original (already very effective) parent classes that are much more complex. That's an A+ design success there. That's what I want to see more of. I want to see less feat cruft and pure crap options.

The problem as well is that I know that overpowered stuff like Order Adept, it will get fixed. Stuff that sucks? Well too bad. It will suck forever.
 

...They are also not harmed by auras, so a creature to get rid of them the companion has to specifically be targeted by a melee or ranged attack. This is a huge victory for the shaman. Much like the BMR above, if a monster wastes its standard action attacking it you have scored a *huge* victory. That's damage not being directed at anything important.

of course, the damage that carries over to the shaman needs to be increased accordingly. I guess the intention was that thetreshold, which scales with 0.5*level should scale with monster average damage. So the new MM3 math should mathematically force the adjustment of the treshold... In a certain way, that would make attacking the spirit more rewarding for the monster...!

They failed spectacularly. Had the rest of the themes been like that I agree. As it is with something as mechanically strong as Order Adept in there, the deficiencies in themes like the animal master are all the more glaring. If the themes were all of that kind of level, adding minor mechanical benefits and something else utility wise I would agree. But when you have such a gigantic mechanical gulf between them, then they fail.

Terrible options are as bad as overpowered options. They clutter the CB and can lead new players into making poor choices - making them feel marginalized at the table when they soon find themselves rendered very ineffective. I mean we're literally talking about something that is at your DMs mercy entirely, vs. something that is almost one of the best examples of power creep in 4E!

No, they didn´t fail. Even if all themes give a little benefit to all characters, you now have a choice to take an option without great combat applications. If all themes were like that, this choice would not be present, and as such, it would in no way adress the criticized issue. Having combat and noncombat options in the same layer makes it possible. If all themes were like the animal master, this layer would have just been the noncombat layer everyone takes.

This in no way means, that adding a layer with pure noncombat choices would have been a bad idea... but this special criticism would not have been invalidated. And I personally (with just a little worry about the order adept and the animal masters animal) like what I see. I like them a lot more in standard D&D than the DS themes, that just add another class role/power source to a character... (which in dark sun seems great to incorporate the old dark sun classes without adding tons of class variants)
 

Why can´t people just ignore "underpowered" choices and let people who like them use them?
The reason I don't like blatantly underpowered choices is because people who are new to the system are unlikely to recognize that it is blatantly underpowered. When a new player joins the game and picks the Animal Master theme, they're probably imagining lots of crazy adventures with their awesome animal friend helping out, fetching keys, swooping down to rake at an enemy's eyes at an opportune moment. They're likely not imagining it dying with near-comedic frequency. But that's what they're going to get.

If there was a sticker slapped onto blatantly underpowered choices that said something to the effect of: "Warning: this selection is intended to be an RP choice/challenge for more experienced players/niche option," I'd honestly be fine with them. But since I don't see that happening any time soon, I'd like it if WotC at least tried to keep some semblance of balance.

Nothing sucks more for a new player than trying out a new system and finding that your favorite class/race/concept of choice is predestined to suck.
 

I think you'll find when you've been around the game designing block a few times, which I have, that what seems simple and straightforward to people sitting in their armchairs really is not at all simple and straightforward in practice. I haven't met or talked to Mike Mearls or any of the other WotC game dev people but I feel reasonably confident in stating that they have people there with a mechanical grasp of the game every bit as thorough as anything you'll find anywhere. There are simply a lot of difficulties involved in producing content that are invisible to you sitting at home. There are also a lot of competing interests that you naturally give less weight to than your own (not a criticism, just an observation about human nature).

I'd also note that in MANY cases when options have been weak, ineffective, or didn't serve their original intent well they actually HAVE been improved. This doesn't happen uniformly in a specific way, but it does happen. People weren't satisfied with beast master's balance of combat capability between the beast and the character, so the sentinel was erected as an answer to that for instance. Wizards had trouble at low levels with control, so that was improved. Paladins had trouble with well a lot of things, and that was substantially improved. People don't always like the way these things have been accomplished and since there's no real way to remove content from the game it does get littered with stuff that has been tried, found somewhat wanting, and is no longer being focused on or improved in that form. Only an edition roll is going to clean that up.
 

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