Themes article up

[Kinneus]

The main thing here is that many players and DMs absolutely must follow every bit of the rules, with no room for DM fiat, whether because they're in a Living game or because that's just how they tick. Make it so THEY can do something without it being a nightmare, and it's that much easier for those with more freedom.

Thanks... this is an excellent point, and exactly why the whole "It's not a problem because you can just house rule it" attitude irks me so much. Some settings don't have that luxury, whether it's LFR, a DM who's very by-the-books, or a new DM with new players that hasn't yet realized they even can house rule stuff.

On the other hand, what monster that is worth its money will devote an attack to kill an animal?

The problem is that lots and lots of monsters don't have to waste an attack to kill it. As I said before; bursts, blasts, environmental hazards, damaging zones, damaging auras, multi-attacks that require you to attack somebody other than the primary target. Here's the example I keep thinking of:

You start the adventure. Aladdin the Rogue and his pet monkey Apu enter the dungeon with their fellow adventurers to see a few orcish warriors blocking their way. But, oh no, they didn't spot the archer on the ledge above them! The archer gets a suprise round. Since the entire party is clumped up together, the archer uses his surprise round to fling an area burst 1 attack at the party.

The monkey was hanging out at Aladdin's heels, right beside him, because hey, that seems like the safest place, right? And sure, the DM could try and be 'nice' and exclude the monkey from the blast, but why would the archer do that, when he can catch more of the big, bad PCs in the blast if he includes the monkey? So, the party gets blasted in the surprise round, and the monkey, due to his level 1 defenses, is only missed on a 1. Apu dies in the very first encounter, before the group even rolls initiative, basically rendering Aladdin's theme useless for the entire adventure. And since they're just entering the dungeon, they're unlikely to get an extended rest any time soon. Is the party really going to call off their initial assault, leave the dungeon, and take an extended rest just so Aladdin can train another monkey-butler?

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

On the other hand, what monster that is worth its money will devote an attack to kill an animal?

That's what the other posters are complaining about though - a monster doesn't have to devote an attack to killing the animal - it just has to catch it in an area effect and *poof* - animal destroyed until the end of the adventure. This is not even uncommon at low levels.

^--- EDIT - ninja'd! ---^

For it to be halfway viable, it would have to work like a familiar, or perhaps like a shaman's spirit companion, where it is not a valid target for area and burst attacks (melee or ranged only). That way, if a monster wanted to hurt it, the DM would have to target the animal specifically, thus "wasting" an attack. At least then its death would not have been for absolutely nothing. So much unlike the current situation, where it can just be casually killed by anything with area effects, auras, zones, etc.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

This is actually what immediately came to my mind before reading your post Nemesis, and maybe a line, that makes a companion animal unconscious instead of dead and nontargetable for the rest of the encounter, would also help.

Would this solve the issue?

edit: maybe i should read posts before posting... (You Ninja´d me Nemesis in a very unsneaky way...)

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

The more I think about it, the more I feel like the "animal problem" is really more of a conceptual issue with the theme itself. Instead of Animal Master focusing on a companion animal maybe it would have been more interesting for it to focus on "doing things with animals" in general. It does have its skill bonuses, but they're only marginally useful and don't kick in till level 10.

I mean it is kind of academic, but giving the theme powers and bonuses that are related to ANY animal you run into, and maybe even unintelligent monsters of various sorts at higher level might have worked better. The character could still have his 'pet' animal, but his theme's advantages wouldn't depend entirely on it and it would become more of an RP thing. Anyway, just a thought.

 

[IanB]

Actually this isn't right, trap feats can have flavor but be immensely mechanically inferior to lots of other things (see most of the new feat cruft occupying up the CB from HoS for multiple examples. The flavor is there, the mechanics are simply not). The animal master isn't a trap yet because we don't know what the rest of the other themes are. I think the Animal Master is absolutely terrible, but if the rest of the themes actually are around the same power level (and things like the Order Adept are suitably nerfed) then it won't be as bad. I'll still think it's terrible, but it won't be a lot worse than other themes.

Of course this assumes the other themes are going to be similarly poorly thought out and mechanically awful. Let's hope that isn't the case. I am hoping for around the Alchemist and Apprentice myself.

Sure, in terms of raw combat power it is pretty terrible. If you're in a RP-heavy intrigue game with lots of skill use or whatever I suspect it compares much more favorably. Not every option is going to be equally suited to every type of game.

 

[Aegeri]

The more I think about it, the more I feel like the "animal problem" is really more of a conceptual issue with the theme itself. Instead of Animal Master focusing on a companion animal maybe it would have been more interesting for it to focus on "doing things with animals" in general. It does have its skill bonuses, but they're only marginally useful and don't kick in till level 10.

Back when I was actually excited for these, I was REALLY hoping for a theme that boosted the immensely lackluster beastmaster ranger and may have had power swap options for combined attack for the sentinel druid (as combined attack loses its luster at higher levels). I was hoping the theme would boost defenses, HP or something else for existing companions, while having a minor familiar like one for people lacking them. Animal companions (and mounts) scale horrifically in 4E. A theme that did something about that would have been awesome.

Instead we get this. Oh well.

 

[Colmarr]

In general I like the themes and look forward to seeing the rest. That said, with regard to the Animal Master one, if they allow a combat power then a survival mechanis for the poor creature that does not rely on the kindness of the DM is in order.

First we had hirelings and henchmen statted as minions, effectingly making them fodder for the DM to chew through. Now we have an animal companion minion.

I had a problem with the hirelings/henchmen article because taking helpers into a dungeon knowing they would almost certainly die didn't seem to sit well with 4e's 'small band of brave and determined heroes' motif. The more I think of it, the more it seems a tasty morsel aimed at the old-school approach that saw henchmen and hirelings as a form of armour that stood between the PCs and death.

Is it just me or is anyone else noting a change in design in that direction?

 

[Saeviomagy]

Yeah, I don't think there's a real problem with Animal Master either.

Here's an example: I have a player that wanted to have a pet cat....

Here's the solution: just let them have a pet cat. It sounds like they just want an in-character way to not have to sit in the corner with their eyes closed and their fingers in their ears every time the rest of the party go stealthing.

Is it really that hard to just say "you don't want a mechanical benefit, so here you go, have a pet cat for free"?

Hell, you can even HAVE mechanical benefits through reflavouring. ("My rogue is actually mechanically inept: all of his thievery skills are his pet monkey doing things").

Unfortunately now that there's a theme that says "it's ok to spend mechanical resources to get minor flavour benefits" the chances of a random DM saying "No, there's a theme for that. You can't get something like that for free" rises dramatically.

Except it isn't a 'trap'. A mechanical trap would be something like a feat that adds no flavor at all and is inferior in every way to another feat or actually makes you worse.

Replace feat with theme and you've almost directly described animal master, unless your DM is the sort of person who says "no, you cannot have a pet cat that gives you no mechanical benefit because the rules don't say you can".

You don't need mechanics for pure flavour. Having feats that add pure flavour IS a trap.

 

[Aegeri]

Is it just me or is anyone else noting a change in design in that direction?

It's not just you, but I personally felt that was a response to the ridiculous "armies" of stuff that you could build in previous editions. I'll never forget the only time I actually was playing DnD in an actual real ongoing campaign (not just one shot playtests or similar) back in 2nd edition. I bought an army of war dogs with some treasure I got, then unleashed them into the orc filled dungeon ahead of us. It was a massacre to say the least, because they were pretty absurd IIRC. I even got the idea to do that off the internet at the time! In my own DMing experience, dealing with players with leadership and absurd diplomacy was very hard in 3rd edition as well (until I discovered they had crap saves. Wail of the Banshee GO).

So making these things minions is a way of making them have a useful benefit in some way, but reducing their combat ability extremely hard. Looking at all the mechanics for pets and similar, 4E makes a very conscious choice to try to make the game about the PCs as much as possible. The PCs pets, hirelings and other things are increasingly marginalized by the rules. It makes it very hard to try to build a kind of "Leader" character like you could get in 3rd edition. The only classes that get away with this feeling are mages/wizards and druids. Their summons are tough enough to take auras and a couple of burst/blast attacks (plus feat support is plentiful for those summons). They can't do this all day easily though.

 

[IanB]

You don't need mechanics for pure flavour. Having feats that add pure flavour IS a trap.

I think you are seriously underestimating the potential of an encounter recharge, sustained, 1 mile range remote-controlled monkey.