D&D (2024) There needs to be a 4th spell list.

[Frozen_Heart]

In D&Done the class you're looking for that does that is the ranger...

Might just make a better bard by picking fighter, then multiclassing rogue. Then taking a bit of druid.

Just kidding. But if I did play Bard I'd probably go 50% bard 50% rogue to get it playing closer to what I consider a jack of all trades class should be.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

Except that "The hands of a king are the hands of a healer" is a metaphor and it's not almost instant the way a paladin is.

And the problem with the ranger isn't that they get some coincidental spells. It's that the class is being drowned in them to the point it's hard to see anything else. What the ranger needs if we're to walk this path is a "spell dump" the way the paladin in practice might have a ludicrous number of spell slots but actually just uses most of them to smite before third level spells.

Hmm DnD 5e has 3rd casters with a base class being a pure martial.

I wonder if it can be done the other way. A subclass downgrading the spellcasting to a 1/3 caster, while going much more heavily on the non magical abilities it gives.

 

[Weiley31]

Just bring back ALL of the 4E Power sources. We're up to three so far. What harm would it do to sprinkle in a few more?

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Just bring back ALL of the 4E Power sources. We're up to three so far. What harm would it do to sprinkle in a few more?

I'd like the monster roles back. Those were super useful.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Just bring back ALL of the 4E Power sources. We're up to three so far. What harm would it do to sprinkle in a few more?

Four. Arcane, divine, martial, and primal (druid, ranger, barbarian). Shadow was never worthwhile (and we have two shadow subclasses) and 5e is doing interesting things with psionics.

They just need to make martial more of a power source and less of a default.

 

[Weiley31]

Shadow was never worthwhile

I think that was due to the fact that 4E only got like what, at most, two Shadow Power source classes and then 4E bit the dust.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I think that was due to the fact that 4E only got like what, at most, two Shadow Power source classes and then 4E bit the dust.

Two different Assassin classes, vampire, binder, blackguard. And the death domain warpriest, gloom pact hexblade, and necromancer and nethermancer wizard schools. And arguably the dark pact warlock should be included.

 

[Haplo781]

I think that was due to the fact that 4E only got like what, at most, two Shadow Power source classes and then 4E bit the dust.

Shadow wasn't a particularly well thought out concept. It's basically "spoopy magic" which is just a subset of arcane.

It could work in a hypothetical 4e that slaughtered even more sacred cows and said "arcane magic isn't a thing anymore, everyone draws their power from a specific plane" and then defined what Fey magic vs. Shadow magic vs. Elemental magic can do.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Shadow wasn't a particularly well thought out concept. It's basically "spoopy magic" which is just a subset of arcane.

It could work in a hypothetical 4e that slaughtered even more sacred cows and said "arcane magic isn't a thing anymore, everyone draws their power from a specific plane" and then defined what Fey magic vs. Shadow magic vs. Elemental magic can do.

I honestly think that power sources were a worthwhile distraction but are something that should be left in 4e (at least as long as martial characters are allowed to go above and beyond). They are very good for codifying things and some of what came out of them was good. But neither stories nor the real world are as clear cut as that.

That said they had beneficial effects for things like the barbarian and sorcerer that had no clear identity before 4e.

 

[Mephista]

My recommendation - Fix the lack of iconic bard spells through subclass spell list. Its what Tasha's did to fix Sorcerer, it can work here.

The Lore bard is already getting Arcane, Nature (primal) and Religion (divine) skills - give them a subclass list that gives them the option to take, say Bane (divine) or Faerie Fire (primal) as first circle spells, Enhance Ability (divine) or Silence (primal) for second circle, Speak with Plants (primal) at third circle, etc.