There's Powerful Deviltry at Work Here...

[mhacdebhandia]

I'm not going to condemn WotC for this choice, nor has it turned me against 4e, I'm just curious if anyone else is uncomfortable with this sort of thing.

Not me. The darker the world, the more meaning there is in heroism.

 

[Epic Meepo]

Most people would argue that Darth Vader is "cool".

Well, I don't know about most people. And I'll agree that Darth Vadar had cool powers and a cool image. But wanting to have frightful abilities and a menacing appearance are different than wanting model one's actions after Vadar. When it comes to personality, I would argue that Vadar was a total tool. He existed only to serve the whims of others as a result of his narrow, selfish convictions, making him the exact opposite of cool.

Well, right up 'til he decided to play human basketball with Palpatine as a ball and a big pit as a basket. That was pretty cool. But he wasn't being evil when he did that.

 

[Nifft]

This is a summary of the plot of the anime called Legend of Black Heaven.

Guitars which vanquish evil. Are the guitars played by ninjas? My game clearly needs more anime.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Hairfoot]

While I don't agree with their interpretation of our hobby, putting warlocks, tieflings and the worship of Asmodeus into the PHB is ony going to give these people more ammunition for their attacks on the hobby and more directly, on myself and other gamers.

Buffy, Harry Potter, WoW... All have demonic themes.

These are less puritan times. Occult-ish memes are more mainstream, and the moral panic over D&D was largely confined to America. I don't like tieflings because I just don't, but condemnation of the game is the least of my worries.

 

[Klaus]

This is a summary of the plot of the anime called Legend of Black Heaven.

This sounds like teh awesome.

Hmm... Rock band + D&D adventuring group... barbarian on drums... bard as singer/base guitar... sorcerer as lead guitar, with druid on bass?

Hmmm...

 

[Robert Ranting]

I think that the question has probably been suitably answered at this point. Thanks for all who posted.

Also, as a note, much of what I said in my opening post was playing devil's advocate for a style of play that I do not practice. Most of my characters are morally ambiguous, and generally tend towards True Neutral (which, according to about 6 of those online tests, is my own alignment). I have in fact played in games with Good aligned tieflings, evil necromancers, and gothic elf anti-heroes as player characters. Generally, speaking, I would much rather have a generic human fighter, wizard, rogue, or cleric, and then through the action of the campaign, have them deal with moral quandries and hard decisions. I think it is much more interesting to put your wizard into a situation where he needs to bargain with a devil to get something he needs *during the story* than to simply have an entire class of people who conveniently made that decision before they gained their first character level. In short, I would rather that D&D start off as generically neutral, and then over time and in-game choices, you choose whose side you are on and what you are willing to do get achieve your goals...but really, that's never been the way the game's core assumption works, so I don't know why it should change now. Maybe I am playing the wrong game.

Thanks for your time, and please remember that I'm not condemning anyone, I'm just concerned with the direction that my hobby is going in and soliciting other people's opinions.

 

[heirodule]

It does seem WOTC keeps trying to sell new products with a higher "evil imagery" quotient.

They don't do too well though

Dreamblade, Hecatomb.

 

[TwinBahamut]

Guitars which vanquish evil. Are the guitars played by ninjas? My game clearly needs more anime.

Cheers, -- N

I don't know much about Legend of Black Heaven, but I know the anime Macross 7 has guys playing guitars from the cockpit of their giant space robots (that transform into fighter jets, this being the sequel to the first section of Robotech, after all) in order to fight off invincible aliens in a giant space epic.

So, no guitar ninjas, but guitar robots, at least.

Err, maybe I should post on the topic at hand, just to avoid feeling rotten about keeping things off topic...

I think it is far too early to worry about excessive quantities of demons and evil PCs. Certainly, there has been a lot of talk about demons, devils, tieflings, and warlocks, but that is because these are the flavor elements which are most changed or new. I seriously doubt that any of them will have any larger of a role in 4E than they do in 3E. Well, I guess tieflings might, but it is not like all PC tieflings are going to be evil...

I think that, as far as this subject is concerned, I doubt 4E will be any different than 3E. There will be options to allow players to have evil PCs and a dark game, but the base assumption will be that the players are heroes and protectors of the innocent (or at least mercenaries and treasure hunters who are generally good people).

 

[coyote6]

That's all well and good, but where's the class that vanquishes foes with an ear-splittin' guitar solo? Y'know, just one guitar... to blow them away... just one guitar...

Swung way down low?

 

[Lanefan]

If - as some here have said - 4e is taking on a more METAL theme, then there might be hope for it after all.

And, alert the media: I agree with Wormwood. The whackjobs who play D+D were, or were going to be, whackjobs whether they ever got introduced to the game or not. In fact, in some cases it's probably a good thing they *do* play the game - it gives them a relatively harmless place to act out their whackjobbery, allowing them to better function in the rest of life.

I have no problem with evil PCs, nor in-party conflict, either as DM or player. That said, I'm not sold on 4e's tieflings, just like I wasn't all that enamoured of 3e's half-dragons or 2e's Drow PCs.

Lanefan