There's Powerful Deviltry at Work Here...

[Wormwood]

Hmm?

/win

 

[ferratus]

I don't know if I would play up all the McFarlane elements of 4e in my games. I understand where it is coming from with bronze age comics and 80's metal and all the other influences on the designers, but I understand where it is coming from.

I'm not so sure that D&D has no influence on people, particularly young people. I know plenty of people who have become rather unhinged because of their obsession with D&D. I also know plenty of people who talk to spirits and believes in magical spells are real because of D&D. So while I don't think it will lead to a rise of evil among gamers, I do believe it will lead to a rise in suburban shmuckism.

Speaking of which, it wouldn't kill D&D books to portray the middle ages more accurately as well. The worst offenses against history involve the portrayal of the western European medieval justice system, where they always show a brute holding a big axe or a torture chamber. In fact, except for the most serious offenses, people paid by means of fines. They also paid those fines on a sliding scale according to what they could pay (using their social class as a measure). The reason they did this was to pay for their courts, and because executed and maimed people don't work. Corporal punishment did exist, and torture rose among the lower classes as a result of reintroduction of the Justinian Law Code (in late Roman and Byzantine law torture was mandatory for the lower classes).

It would be a great benefit to the game as well. If someone is caught breaking the law (as long as they didn't murder anyone) it would ensure that the game could go on. Instead of executing or maiming your thief PC, take away all his valuable magical items and equipment, then banish him from the city. Trust me, he'll be much more subtle and better behaved next time, and the campaign can continue.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I'm not so sure that D&D has no influence on people, particularly young people. I know plenty of people who have become rather unhinged because of their obsession with D&D. I also know plenty of people who talk to spirits and believes in magical spells are real because of D&D.

I'm not denying your experience here, but I'm genuinely surprised that you know anyone who has become unhinged or talks to spirits because of D&D. I don't think I've ever, ever come across anyone where that was even remotely true.

 

[Charwoman Gene]

I feel that D&D can be dangerous if "done wrong" in terms of its effect on the psyche of some. It can also be very helpful. I don't think the slight shifting I'm seeing in 4e makes it worse.

I've used most of the "new darkness" elements myself, tieflings, Asmodeus as a "god", All except for warlocks, which are LESS objectionable with the feral and shadow ideas.

I just feel like the tone is getting "Metal" which I've ALWAYS found to just be lame. YMMV.

 

[Anthtriel]

So, more like...

"We should donate half of the orphans to Orcus."

"Half of each orphan?"

"Sure, but which half?"

"We'll alternate."

"Splendid idea."

Yeah, I got that covered:

Plus, shining examples of good are nice and all, but if you take it to the extreme of the group of saints, then I don't see how it is anymore exciting than the opposite evil extreme, i.e. not at all.

Point is, it's rather hard to relate to the saint or the mad mass-murderer, and if a party consists exclusively of either of them, it's hard to have meaningful interaction.
This is probably mostly caused by D&D's alignment system which strongly encourages extreme characters.

 

[Epic Meepo]

Apparently it is a matter of age to some degree, though another reason might be that my groups tend to be more time out of combat, and the characters less of an avatar for the player than the EnWorld average.

I would be interested in seeing the data you used in calculating the "ENWorld average" you mention. Could you post that somewhere for the rest of us to see?

Conversations like "We should donate half our money to the orphanage." "No, what are you saying? We should donate all of it!" "Splendid idea!" are not my idea of fun.

I am genuinely saddened that you think the above conversation in any way characterizes what it is to be Good.

Also, regarding the more general theme of "evil is cool" that has been mentioned several times in this thread, much of the "evil" behavior that I see be mentioned as cool doesn't strike me as being very evil at all. Using powers granted by Evil to turn around and thumb your nose at Evil is an act of Chaotic rebellion. Doing cruel things to eliminate an even crueler threat is pure, secret-agent-style Lawful. And teetering between living a righteous life and giving in to one's darker instincts is just plain Neutral.

Truly Evil people are serial killers, sexual predators, or others with a similar lack of moral fiber. They willfully hurt others because it makes them feel good about themselves, because it profits them, or because they find it fun. They might murder innocent bystanders as a matter of convenience, or regularly laugh at people who are in pain. In short, they are the people you hope never take an interest in anyone you love.

I sincerely hope that no one thinks any of the above is even remotely "cool."

Ultimately, it cheapens what Evil is to say that angsty occultists who believe in eye-for-eye justice and tough sacrifices in the name of justice or revenge are Evil. If that's what one thinks evil is, then one is turning a blind eye to the real problems going on in the world; there are acts many, many times more heinous than any of that stuff happening every day. Compared to real evil, yonder emo PC is just a wannabe evildoer, much as an untalented amateur musician with a guitar is a wannabe rockstar. They're not even in the same league.

 

[Wormwood]

I also know plenty of people who talk to spirits and believes in magical spells are real because of D&D.

Because of D&D?

I've met some whackjobs in my 25+ year gaming career and I'm confident that they were all fully nuts before they rolled their first die.

That said, the hobby does seem to attract its fair share of social misfits and borderline personalities.

 

[Gog]

That right there really bothers me, add in Warlock but lose druid, it dosen't really sit well with me.

I am a little bit concerned for different reasons:

2) I think not including the druid is a mistake. I think the whole nature connected priest is important to the core ideals of fantasy roleplaying.

 

[Wormwood]

I would be interested in seeing the data you used in calculating the "ENWorld average" you mention. Could you post that somewhere for the rest of us to see?

How about here

 

[Wormwood]

I sincerely hope that no one thinks any of the above is even remotely "cool."

Well, not since my buddies and I were about 14 or 15.

But yeah, our larval gamer stage was pretty creepy.