Thief + to hit crazy?

DaMidWestNinja

First Post
I got a 4th lvl Thief I am DMing and he has something like a +15 to hit when has CA That hits things his lvl with like a 2.

+2 from lvl
+5 from dex
+4 from +1 kukri
+1 from Expertise
+1 from Thief Weapon talent
+2 from CA normally
+1 from Nimble blade.

Is that just what rogues saposta do? Or what? Its not hard to get CA in 4th and seems to always have it.
 

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Yep. Thieves are ridiculously accurate and it's one of their most notable features. The fact they have stances to pretty much nearly always get CA in one way or another is just delicious icing on an exquisite cake. I think in my Dark Sun game before the player changed to the new executioner, his thief missed only a handful of times. Bearing in mind you've also got backstab (another +3 to hit, why yes sir) and if you're human heroic effort (+4 on demand) it is really easy to make something hit when you want it.
 

None of those bonuses is an Easter Egg. The only thing in that list that won't be found in most builds is Nimble Blade. WotC obviously expects a Thief who is optimized for accuracy to be accurate.
 

Oh kk Thnx ;-) I just wanted to make sure that I'm not going crazy. WotC changed sneak attack too right? Now its once per combatants turn? Not once per round? Cuz I have a warlord that allows my rogue to get extra attacks off his turn and the DPR is off the charts sometimes.
 

Oh kk Thnx ;-) I just wanted to make sure that I'm not going crazy. WotC changed sneak attack too right? Now its once per combatants turn? Not once per round? Cuz I have a warlord that allows my rogue to get extra attacks off his turn and the DPR is off the charts sometimes.

Yes, once per turn. The Warlord can give the Rogue (any type, not just the Thief) extra attacks that have the potential to do Sneak Attack (and Backstab) damage -- but CA is still a requirement.
 

We got a cunning sneak (old school rogue, same numbers) who is anything from 2-4 points ahead of the other party members.

If you think about it, a sword weilding knight,slayer or ranger wouldnt be that much behind it. The only bonus they wouldnt (necessarily) match was the nimble blade bonus
 

Most Strikers have some kind of accuracy boost.

Ranger: Double Attacks
Sorcerer: Multiple Targets
Monk: Multiple Targets
Avenger: Roll twice, equivalent to +5 to hit

The ones that don't:

Barbarian: Encouraged to Charge for +1, swingiest damage of all strikers. Hits harder, but less accurate but this is an intentional trade-off.
Warlock: Worst striker next to Assassin, and accuracy is part of the problem (I mean this purely in terms of damage, defensively Warlocks are pretty strong which is why they hybrid well with Defenders).
Assassin: Hahahahahahaha

But yeah, Rogues have always been way ahead of other people in +hit.
 

+2 from lvl
+5 from dex
+4 from +1 kukri
+1 from Expertise
+1 from Thief Weapon talent
+2 from CA normally
+1 from Nimble blade.

Essentials is off the charts for to hit for a few classes including the Thief. Your assessment is correct.

In your list here:

+5 from Dex is a +1 boost over most other PCs because a 1st level Thief can get away with a 19 or 20 whereas many other classes need multiple decent stats.

+1 from Expertise, the purpose of Expertise is to balance out a math problem. In reality, the fix should start at level 5, not level 1 (the earliest this can be taken). So, it's good to know that at least this +1 will be less of an issue at level 5 and above than it was at level 4 and below.

+1 from Thief Weapon Talent. This is a culprit here. Fighters used to be the only class with Weapon Talent, but now Thieves get it as well.

+2 from CA. Getting CA slightly over half of the time when the game was first designed was an average of a little over +1. Getting it every single round is an additional +1.

+1 from Nimble Blade. This was often a staple of Rogues. But, it only occurs when Combat Advantage occurs. When the game first came out, this +1 was conditional. CA didn't always occur. With the Thief, it almost always occurs. This makes this feat more potent because it really isn't conditional for a Thief.

So, the Thief now is easily capable of being an average of +3.5 to hit over the original Rogue and even more over other Strikers. That is a problem for some players and DMs. Hitting often is fine. Hitting 95% of the time against a same level monster? Why exactly are we rolling the dice? Oh yeah, to see if a 1 or a 20 shows up 10% of the time.

There are entire combats where rolling the to hit die for a Thief is meaningless.

And of course, with the change to Sneak Attack being every turn instead of every round, people might as well play a party of Thieves and never be challenged.


So, if the original Rogue did d6+5+2d6+1 damage with CA 2/3rds of the time with an 80% chance to hit and d6+5+1 damage 1/3rd of the time with a 65% chance to hit for an average DPR of 10.9 (without crits), the Thief now does d6+5+2d6+1 95% of the time or 15.7 DPR (without crits) and he can sometimes do this twice or more per round (and of course, not including other feats to boost the damage more). That's an increase of over 40% more damage and even more with the Sneak Attack change. And people claim that Essentials is balanced.


As the PCs go even higher levels, he'll gain 4 (or 5) for stats, 5 for magic, 2 for expertise, and 13 for level or 24 or 25 over the next 26 levels. More or less, he'll always be up in that 80% to 90% range to hit forever (without even taking into account bonuses to hit from allies or other abilities).


Another issue here is that DMs used to challenge PCs with n+2 through n+4 encounters. With the damage change for monsters, this pushes a challenging encounter back down into the n through n+2 range which means that all of the PCs are effectively +2 to hit, further exacerbating the to hit issue.


It's pretty much a shame that WotC blew off their promise from Aug 2008 to not have a boatload of stackable bonuses to hit in the game system.


PS. A +1 Kukri is only +3 to hit. Be glad that your player took that weapon. Not that it matters that much. He misses a same level foe on a 2, but hits on a 3.
 

Warlock: Worst striker next to Assassin, and accuracy is part of the problem (I mean this purely in terms of damage, defensively Warlocks are pretty strong which is why they hybrid well with Defenders).

The star pact half-elf warlock in my game hits on a two occasionally. There are a lot of +'s to hit for a Warlock these days. She has Expertise, Accurate implement, Reckless Curse, Improved Fate of the Void, Action Surge, Bravo. She sometimes gets Prime Shot or CA from one of her powers like Frigid Darkness, or from a leader. Then there are items like Eagle Eye Goggles. Accuracy is usually not a problem.

At paragon with Shadow Warlock Armor CA becomes even easier. Or there is Primed Curse for those who prefer to get in the thick of things with Shadowdance Armor. With something like Two fold Curse and Bloodied Boon that curse boon triggers even more often for a star pact warlock, and it's not too difficult to get for anyone with two-fold pact. Sorcerer-King pact can also give access to some nice damage benefits and yet another way to gain CA (to you and your allies).

Warlocks were once the step child striker, but that is not the case any more.
 

The star pact half-elf warlock in my game hits on a two occasionally. There are a lot of +'s to hit for a Warlock these days. She has Expertise, Accurate implement, Reckless Curse, Improved Fate of the Void, Action Surge, Bravo. She sometimes gets Prime Shot or CA from one of her powers like Frigid Darkness, or from a leader. Then there are items like Eagle Eye Goggles. Accuracy is usually not a problem.

At paragon with Shadow Warlock Armor CA becomes even easier. Or there is Primed Curse for those who prefer to get in the thick of things with Shadowdance Armor. With something like Two fold Curse and Bloodied Boon that curse boon triggers even more often for a star pact warlock, and it's not too difficult to get for anyone with two-fold pact. Sorcerer-King pact can also give access to some nice damage benefits and yet another way to gain CA (to you and your allies).

Warlocks were once the step child striker, but that is not the case any more.
You left out Hidden Sniper, and about a hundred other options... all of which are equally available to other Strikers. Warlocks have gotten better at roughly the same rate as other Strikers, meaning they are still behind in the damage department compared to other Strikers. This is a basic statement of fact, an optimized Warlock will lose in both the nova and DPR categories against other optimized Strikers. This isn't to say they are bad, they have some good controller-ish effects, good defensive options, etc., but I believe I made it quite clear I was talking about damage.
 

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