Things I had to get through my head

[Dice4Hire]

If you had mentioned any other defender, I would agree with you, but fighters are the highest-damage defender there is.

Yes, but he is not in a striker's league.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Yes, but he is not in a striker's league.

I'm not entirely convinced. A 20 Str Fighter with Full Blade Proficiency is doing 12.5 damage per hit.

A 20 Dex Rogue wielding a Dagger is doing 13.5 damage.

Both of those only on a 1[w] attack.

On a 2[w] it is instead 18 vs 17. On a 3[w] it is 24.5 vs 19.5. And the Fighter can do that twice in a round by spending an action point. The Rogue's damage drops to 7.5 damage on his action point with a 1[w] attack.

Yes, it's possible for the Rogue to partially catch up by also using a better weapon, but then they are +1 to hit behind the fighter. Which could actually negate the extra damage.

It's not cut and dry...but I'd say a Fighter does about equal damage to a Striker in most cases. You'd think the extra damage that Rogues get for going up levels would eventually outdo the fighter, but the fighter starts to get a lot of 4, 5, or 6[w] attacks at higher level. And every dice the fighter adds with a big weapon essentially gives him bonus damage over the Rogue.

If you compare their damage to Warlocks...Fighters win almost every time.

In fact, amongst our group of friends, people have begun to just assume Fighters are Strikers. A bunch of them who are Tempest Fighters actually get angry if anyone calls them a defender...because they don't want to mark enemies or stand in one spot to protect the group.

 

[Obryn]

Also, Fighters get Brash Strike, which is an insanely good at-will.

I mean, +2 attack bonus and +CON to damage, while opening yourself up to one opponent? It's a very low cost for the benefit.

-O

 

[catsclaw227]

I agree, the DM-focused books are the only ones that warrant an actual sit down and read through. The player-focused books are more like spread sheets with all the power blocks, feats, and rituals. I honestly think they are more suited for the PDF format, so they can be searched.

They're well suited for the DDI as well. If I am looking for good fluff, I like Open Grave, MotP and Draconomicon as well.

As for what I had to learn... Encourage stunts and things not defined in a power. It makes for some more interesting combats.

There is as much RP in 4e as there is in any other edition. It is the responsibility of the players and DM to remember that. For our group, I learned to lay down /close/move the DM screen when not in combat. It helps with focusing on the RP elements, and pulls us out of the tactical combat subgame.

 

[MatthewJHanson]

I'm not entirely convinced. A 20 Str Fighter with Full Blade Proficiency is doing 12.5 damage per hit.

A 20 Dex Rogue wielding a Dagger is doing 13.5 damage.

If you are using a fighter with a full-blade, you have to let the comparison rogue have a feet too, so it will take backstabber for an extra 2 damage per attack.

Encounter powers will only deal 3[W] at paragon, at which point sneak attack will deal an additional 4.5 damage.

Plus if you add brutal scoundrel, I'll take rogue for damage any day.

 

[AngryMojo]

If you are using a fighter with a full-blade, you have to let the comparison rogue have a feet too, so it will take backstabber for an extra 2 damage per attack.

Encounter powers will only deal 3[W] at paragon, at which point sneak attack will deal an additional 4.5 damage.

Plus if you add brutal scoundrel, I'll take rogue for damage any day.

This. Your typical brutal scoundrel rogue, or artful dodger with sly flourish, will be shelling out about 20 damage per attack at level one. This isn't just supported by math either, I've seen about three of that build at that level, and it's very consistently that damage output.

 

[Cadfan]

This. Your typical brutal scoundrel rogue, or artful dodger with sly flourish, will be shelling out about 20 damage per attack at level one. This isn't just supported by math either, I've seen about three of that build at that level, and it's very consistently that damage output.

Brutal Scoundrel or Artful Dodger using Sly Flourish: 1d4+2d8+7, assuming 18 dex and 16 strength or charisma. Averages 18.5 per hit. 17.5 with a little more average 18/14 stats.

Fighter with Fullblade, assuming 18 strength: 1d12+4, plus 4 damage to an adjacent target with Cleave or 4 damage on a miss from Reaping Strike. The Reaping Strike issue makes the math change based on accuracy, but if you assume that's irrelevant (which is fair, but flaky depending on opponent) averages 14.5 per hit/attack/flaky thing. This is ignoring the High Critical feature, which adds 1d12 damage 5% of the time, averaging an additional .325 damage per attack, or about .65 per hit. So these numbers are a little more flaky, but we can call it about a 15.3.

So yeah, the Rogue has an advantage, but its not THAT huge. Fighters dish out a pretty fair amount of pain.

Some of it is less visible though, in the case of extra damage on a miss through Reaping Strike. You SEE the rogue's high damage when he drops 18 damage on a single attack. You don't SEE the fighter's relatively high damage when he drops 11 on one attack and 4 on the next when he misses, even though the rogue's miss that round did zero damage and what really matters is the net total over time.

Some of the extra damage is also less focused, as in Cleave damage. This can be good or bad. Its great when there are minions around and the rogue is stabbing a minion in the face for eleventy billion damage while the fighter is hitting a regular enemy for 10 or so each round, and simultaneously killing an adjacent minion as almost an afterthought with little or no wasted effort.

Additionally, rogue's are a bit frontloaded, benefit less from high [W] powers as time goes by and these attacks become more important, and have mediocre or terrible OAs and charges. Although of course they also qualify for Nimble Blade. Fighters meanwhile qualify for fancy paragon paths that grant damage and accuracy bonuses to all attacks.

The rogue is going to win. I don't want anyone to think that I'm arguing otherwise. Its just not a rout. The fighter puts up a very good show.