Things to do when you're prone.

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Sav said:

It doesn't need to. Free actions don't provoke AoOs as a general rule.

Not true - and even the Sage admitted as much:

however, not provoking attacks of opportunity is not a general feature of free actions.

He mentions that he can't think of any off the top of his head, which is admittedly funny since he just mentioned it.

Moreover:

Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free.

Note that it doesn't say anything about never provoking an AoO.

Also, I'm pretty sure that, in order to make use of an "Epic Use of a Skill," you'd likewise need to be Epic yourself. I can't find any text to support such a claim at the moment, but I'm pretty sure I read it somewhere ...

 

[Kashell]

"Also, I'm pretty sure that, in order to make use of an "Epic Use of a Skill," you'd likewise need to be Epic yourself. I can't find any text to support such a claim at the moment, but I'm pretty sure I read it somewhere ..."


Epic characters aren't any different from normal charcters. If you have a non-epic character who has a balance check of 120, then just as the epic handbook suggests, he should be able to balance on a cloud. (That is, considering that the non-epic character COULD have a balance check of 120..)

As far as I understand, the only thing unique about epic characters VS normal characters is that they have access to the epic feats. In my campaigns, if a character who is non-epic can meet the requirements for an epic feat, he can take it, but usually most of the epic feats have a level requirement on them as well.

If a PC of yours can beat a DC 35 Tumble check, let him stand up as a free action (aka, Kip up). I say that it provokes an attack of opportunity, but opponent's won't get the +4 to hit (since he's not on the ground anymore).

Also, noteworthy, characters who have the class ability Kip up <b> and</b> can beat a DC 35 tumble check, I constitute as NOT provoking an attack of opportunity when using Kip up.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Sav, Kashell - I can't find any support for "If not Epic, then can't make Epic skill checks," so I may need to concede on that one.

Kashell - you might want to rethink the lack of still being prone on your AoOs. If someone is prone, they can't be tripped. If someone who is Tumbling to stand up isn't prone when they provoke the AoO, they can be retripped - and since trying to stand up again is a free action, this can go on as long as your opponents possess AoOs.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Sav said:

Not true - and even the Sage admitted as much:

He mentions that he can't think of any off the top of his head, which is admittedly funny since he just mentioned it.

Note that it doesn't say anything about never provoking an AoO.

You're right. I must be misremembering. The closest I can come is "free actions rarely provoke attacks of opportunity". Mind you - I still wouldn't hand out AoO's to people for a person standing as a free action. If it's a free action, then there is no appreciable amount of time that the target is defenseless for...

Also, I'm pretty sure that, in order to make use of an "Epic Use of a Skill," you'd likewise need to be Epic yourself. I can't find any text to support such a claim at the moment, but I'm pretty sure I read it somewhere ...

Good to know you need to be epic before you can walk on a surface that's 1-2 inches thick, craft anything quickly, gather information in a circumspect manner, stand on a mount, read lips while moving, splice two ropes together quickly, etc etc.

I can't imagine what possible explanation you could use to deny a character with sufficient bonuses on a skill any of these.

It's also interesting to note that a character of level 20 can balance on a 1 inch thick surface at a DC of 20, while the level 21 character requires a 40. Apparently.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Sav said:

Good to know you need to be epic before you can [1]walk on a surface that's 1-2 inches thick, [2]craft anything quickly, [3]gather information in a circumspect manner, [4]stand on a mount, [5]read lips while moving, [6]splice two ropes together quickly, etc etc.

1. Mentioned in the non-Epic rules as DC 20 (as you later point out) - no idea why it got an increased DC in Epic rules, except perhaps as a 3.0 -> 3.5 translation problem?

2. Mentioned in the non-Epic rules as well - though only the first increase by 10 is allowed.

3. Because Gather Information specifically says that you're using "An evening’s time, a few gold pieces for buying drinks and making friends," - not "avoid[ing] any suspicions that might otherwise be aroused by someone pursuing sensitive information." The first use isn't circumspect in and of itself. Also, we aren't talking about someone being circumspect, necessarily, we're talking about the difference between a guard going back to his vampire master and saying, "Hey, boss - some of the boys say there's dis guy in town askin' sensitive questions aboutcha," vs. not even believing there's anything to report.

4. The Epic use is *not* standing on your mount while it's running about. It's "Stand on your mount's back, not in a saddle, in combat, and take absolutely no penalties whatsoever." This includes all normal archery penalties.

5. The non-Epic version of the Spot skill doesn't say you must be standing still to use it.

6. Splicing ropes together quickly? Have you ever spliced a couple of ropes together (I'm guessing not, based on previous Profession posts ... )? Splicing two ropes together as a Move-equivalent actions is absolutely beyond the realms of human ability - which is the sort of thing that screams "Epic only."

It's also interesting to note that a character of level 20 can balance on a 1 inch thick surface at a DC of 20, while the level 21 character requires a 40. Apparently.

There are many reasons I don't particularly care for Epic rules.

 

[Zen]

Thanks all for the answers. I'll have to rememebr to check the FAQ in the future.

--Z

 

[Saeviomagy]

Sav said:

Saev says: Get my name right!

2. Mentioned in the non-Epic rules as well - though only the first increase by 10 is allowed.

So once you can reliably make the DC 20 above that required for the item, what - you're left with wearing a blindfold to make items quicker to create again?

3. Because Gather Information specifically says that you're using "An evening’s time, a few gold pieces for buying drinks and making friends," - not "avoid[ing] any suspicions that might otherwise be aroused by someone pursuing sensitive information." The first use isn't circumspect in and of itself. Also, we aren't talking about someone being circumspect, necessarily, we're talking about the difference between a guard going back to his vampire master and saying, "Hey, boss - some of the boys say there's dis guy in town askin' sensitive questions aboutcha," vs. not even believing there's anything to report.

I'd say that's the difference between being circumspect in your enquiries and being NOT circumspect in your enquiries. I find it ridiculous that the ability should be epic only.

4. The Epic use is *not* standing on your mount while it's running about. It's "Stand on your mount's back, not in a saddle, in combat, and take absolutely no penalties whatsoever." This includes all normal archery penalties.

Says whom? Are you saying that a character standing on a horse ignores penalties for range or darkness?

The only logical ruling to be gained from this is "the character takes no additional penalties from this".

5. The non-Epic version of the Spot skill doesn't say you must be standing still to use it.

Hmm, bizarre.

6. Splicing ropes together quickly? Have you ever spliced a couple of ropes together (I'm guessing not, based on previous Profession posts ... )? Splicing two ropes together as a Move-equivalent actions is absolutely beyond the realms of human ability - which is the sort of thing that screams "Epic only."

Nope, I've never done that. I'll admit that changing an activity that requires 5 minutes into one that requires a mere 3 (or so) seconds is probably an amazing feat.

But so is regularly falling 200 feet while wearing platemail and surviving. Or defeating an elephant in hand-to-hand combat. The line between epic and non-epic is a lot blurrier than you think.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Saev says: Get my name right!

Er... Very sorry!

For some reason, I keep reading your name as Saveiomagy. Probably because of the near- ... uh, letter switching ability ... to make "save game."

So once you can reliably make the DC 20 above that required for the item, what - you're left with wearing a blindfold to make items quicker to create again?

Nope. It's just that, pre-Epic, you can only increase the speed of manufacture by one step (i.e., make a buckler at DC 21). Post-Epic, you can make it Epicly fast (make a buckler at DC 101).

I agree - this doesn't necessarily make sense. Why can't I, as a pre-Epic armorsmith, make my bucklers at DC 31? Heck, why can't I make them at DC 26 (increasing the DC by 15)? But them's the rules, as they say.

Of course, I don't *really* care for the way D&D handles the Craft rules (making anything remotely interesting takes far, far too long) to begin with, so...

Says whom? Are you saying that a character standing on a horse ignores penalties for range or darkness?

The only logical ruling to be gained from this is "the character takes no additional penalties from this".

Granted. So, what penalties do the rules prescribe for standing on your saddle without being an Epic rider?

Hmm, bizarre.

Yeah, I had to look that one up to make sure, too.

Nope, I've never done that. I'll admit that changing an activity that requires 5 minutes into one that requires a mere 3 (or so) seconds is probably an amazing feat.

For illustrative purposes, splicing two ropes together can be accomplished using one of a few different splices, but the basic idea is that you unweave the separate strands at the ends of the two ropes to be spliced. You then weave them into each other with a particular pattern designed to minimize weak points (as in, a knot in a rope is actually a weak spot, and the rope will generally fail at that point rather than somewhere else along its length). You finish it off, depending on the splice, by wrapping the ends of the weave in the now-longer rope in twine - sort of like a bandage.

A good splice is actually stronger than the ropes it is made out of. A bad splice is weaker.

http://www.neropes.com/splice/default.htm

 

[Trainz]

If a PC of yours can beat a DC 35 Tumble check, let him stand up as a free action (aka, Kip up). I say that it provokes an attack of opportunity, but opponent's won't get the +4 to hit (since he's not on the ground anymore).

Well, actually I don't think so. An AoO happens as the action that provokes it, thus the attack happens WHILE the character gets up from the ground, and the AoO benefits from the +4 to hit.

He would still be able to get up, but possibly with less hit points then he had before getting up.

Being prone sucks, basically. And thus, the large size big strength tripper is such a favored combo among power gamers. I'm not guilty of it yet, but I must say I was tempted more than once.

 

[isoChron]

Interesting that in 3.0 there are three ways of standing up from prone and two in 3.5.
Is it because it now has a penalty and the designers didn't want you to circumvent this drawback ?

3.0 Stand up as move-equivalent action
3.0 Stand up as free action using "kip up"-special ability
3.0 Stand ip as free action if you hit with an attack from prone using the "prone attack" feat

3.5 stand as move action
3.5 stand as free action using tumble DC35 (not that official)

Forgot something ?