Third Edition Culture- Is is sustainable?

[Rasyr]

Yeah, I can relate to that. I mean I could play rolemaster (though I think it's a bit of a paper tiger) (I don't think I could play GURPS, though), but it does seem like there is a solid 50% ratio of RM and GURPS players who wear their hate-on for D&D on their sleeve.

I wouldn't say it is limited to just those two system either. I think that there are those who get so fanatical about the system that they are playing that they hate just about any other system out there. This includes D&D players as well as Rolemaster, GURPS, Exalted, LoTR, Unisystem, and Fudge players, to name just a few.

 

[Psion]

Oh, I understand that. But *D&D is the game that everyone used to play and that they have supposedly moved on to better things for. Which makes it the resident whipping boy at RPGnet.

 

[Rasyr]

Well, yeah, it is the resident whipping boy, to a certain degree. Then there are those posters over there who make the situation worse by going to the other extreme and rabidly attacking anybody who might say a cross word about D&D (and then claim that there is a lot more D&D bashing than there might actually be). I am fairly sure you know of at least one of the folks I am referring to.

 

[Desdichado]

Oh, yeah. The thing is, though, to my mind, there's a pretty big difference between d20 and D&D, that a lot of those posters don't get. I think even rpg.net has started to recognize that; the Conan RPG was rpg.net's baby for a while, for instance.

 

[Turjan]

Oh, I understand that. But *D&D is the game that everyone used to play and that they have supposedly moved on to better things for. Which makes it the resident whipping boy at RPGnet.

I think it's just a matter of group dynamics. It's easy for a new member to endear itself to a community by repeating an opinion that is believed to be popular. The use of a topic that everybody shares some knowledge about makes it more effective. I doubt that many of those shouters really played D&D, when I see that they even don't get basic game details right, if they care to give any details once in a while.

Oh, yeah. The thing is, though, to my mind, there's a pretty big difference between d20 and D&D, that a lot of those posters don't get. I think even rpg.net has started to recognize that; the Conan RPG was rpg.net's baby for a while, for instance.

That's not only the case for Conan. M&M had a decent stand at rpg.net, too, although there are enough other supers games around. Even Eberron as a standard D&D setting was taken moderately well, so that the D&D bashing is not that bad at the moment . But I have to laugh when I read statements like "It's such a cool game, I really like it, if it just would not be d20!" .

 

[drakhe]

The Core to the game, with one small addendum...

Any game system, no matter what the mechanics, no matter what the "fluff vs. crunch", no matter what settings are available, no matter the simplicity, no matter the complexity, needs 2 things to be successful:

1. A good GM who is willing to put the necessary work into making the game fun and flow well.

2. Good players, ones who are there to play and have fun, not to be argumentative or try to turn the game into Diablo.

Without these two things, the system used doesn't amount to a hill of beans, period.

So search high and low, pick a system you like, and go with it. Just don't expect the system to make up for your own flaws as a GM or player.

This is THE core to the roleplaying experience! I would just like to add:

Don't let the rules hijack the game!
Unless, offcourse, as a GROUP you like playing the rules...

IMHO, RPG'ing is the greatest game simply because of the freedom you have to use/ignore/add/create/... any rule in the game.

RPG = like minds + imagination

 

[scourger]

stick to the core

I find 3e/3.5 much better if I stick to the core. All the players need is in the PHB. As a DM, all I need, in order of decreasing importance, is the PHB, an adventure, DMG & MM (or whatever books are "core" for a particular game). I learned this lesson in 2e and am very happy I applied it to 3e and all d20 games since. I find my focus is much on less on the rules now and much more on the story. Each one balances the other.

 

[eyebeams]

But because Bull Rush says, "move into their space, draw AoO, opposed Str checks" (more or less) it's easy to wing it and come up with roughly the right ruling. In fact, that's what I just did, as I wrote that.

See, what you're not recognizing is that your example is actually wrong. Bull Rush doesn't really work like that and approximating it that way not only shows that winging it doesn't put you as spot on as you believe, but seriously affects play balance for certain characters.

So it kind of contradicts your whole point about being able to guess right. You didn't.

I'm not saying that when winging d20 you'll ALWAYS get the PERFECT ruling that's identical to what's in the book. I'm not saying you'll always take into account every detail there is to account for. I'm just saying I've found that my off-the-cuff rulings tend to correlate pretty well with the actual ruling, which makes me ever-more confident in winging it, which leads to me not even open the books in many sessions nowadays.

To be frank, your ruling pretty much hoses characters with Combat Reflexes (some of the time) and Improved Bull Rush (almost all of the time). If you "winged" Bull Rush like this, then I just wouldn't bother with a character with IBR in your games, since your rulings are going to rip me off. With IBR, I should be able to make riskier Bull Rushes where another character would open themselves to two discrete AoOs. Now, IBR isn't really worth it because it doesn't negate a significant amount of risk for the cost of the feat. Character builds are not based on people's intuitions about the rules. They're based on the actual rules. You need to learn and consistently apply the actual rules to keep character choices properly weighted against each other.

This isn't the sole example. As noted earlier, people screw up things like Concentration checks all the time (and other spellcasting rules too, which happen to invalidate a number of associated feats outright). They screw up facing and movement in combat. These things have specific character rules and tactics that become too useful, less useful, or more useful depending on how well the DM implements the rules in game.

And again -- there's nothing wrong with this by itself. It's a valid style of play. But the D20 implementation that makes this kind of stuff less of a concern is not really the one featured in the SRDs, and is not really a credit to the system, beyond the core mechanic -- and the core mechanic is not a particularly innovative thing. Neither complaining nor glad handing are really appropriate.

 

[Desdichado]

See, what you're not recognizing is that your example is actually wrong. Bull Rush doesn't really work like that and approximating it that way not only shows that winging it doesn't put you as spot on as you believe, but seriously affects play balance for certain characters.

So it kind of contradicts your whole point about being able to guess right. You didn't.

Actually, if you'd put more effort into checking yourself instead of trying to "get him" you'd realize that he did accurately describe Bull Rush after all. From the SRD:

BULL RUSH
You can make a bull rush as a standard action (an attack) or as part of a charge (see Charge, below). When you make a bull rush, you attempt to push an opponent straight back instead of damaging him. You can only bull rush an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller.
Initiating a Bull Rush: First, you move into the defender’s space. Doing this provokes an attack of opportunity from each opponent that threatens you, including the defender. (If you have the Improved Bull Rush feat, you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender.) Any attack of opportunity made by anyone other than the defender against you during a bull rush has a 25% chance of accidentally targeting the defender instead, and any attack of opportunity by anyone other than you against the defender likewise has a 25% chance of accidentally targeting you. (When someone makes an attack of opportunity, make the attack roll and then roll to see whether the attack went astray.)
Second, you and the defender make opposed Strength checks. You each add a +4 bonus for each size category you are larger than Medium or a –4 penalty for each size category you are smaller than Medium. You get a +2 bonus if you are charging. The defender gets a +4 bonus if he has more than two legs or is otherwise exceptionally stable.
Bull Rush Results: If you beat the defender’s Strength check result, you push him back 5 feet. If you wish to move with the defender, you can push him back an additional 5 feet for each 5 points by which your check result is greater than the defender’s check result. You can’t, however, exceed your normal movement limit. (Note: The defender provokes attacks of opportunity if he is moved. So do you, if you move with him. The two of you do not provoke attacks of opportunity from each other, however.)
If you fail to beat the defender’s Strength check result, you move 5 feet straight back to where you were before you moved into his space. If that space is occupied, you fall prone in that space.

That actually really kinda weakens your argument, not his.

 

[eyebeams]

*cough*

Note: The defender provokes attacks of opportunity if he is moved. So do you, if you move with him. The two of you do not provoke attacks of opportunity from each other, however.

*cough*