D&D 5E (2014) Thoughts on bonus action potions?

[Tessarael]

There are a two main aspects of the discussion here:

One is keep it simple, the rules are an abstraction, bonus action potions make sense mechanically, 1/2 lb is a simple weight to use when calculating. Yes, I agree with this.

Another is that drinking 4 oz of liquid takes too long for it to be a bonus action, how much of the weight is that of the vial itself vs. the liquid, and so forth. I'm just providing info for folks who want a more realistic weight for the vial and liquid. 1 oz to be swallowed quickly as a bonus action seems reasonable to me. What the weight of the potion + vial then is could be anywhere from 2 oz (i.e., typical weight for today's glass vials) vs. let's go and justify the 1/2 lb weight by saying that the vial is crafted to be difficult to break.

Go with what suits you for your campaign, playing style, and world view. I'm not making an issue here, I'm just explaining a way of looking at things mechanically for bonus action potion usage that makes sense to me.

 

[AlViking]

There are a two main aspects of the discussion here:

One is keep it simple, the rules are an abstraction, bonus action potions make sense mechanically, 1/2 lb is a simple weight to use when calculating. Yes, I agree with this.

Another is that drinking 4 oz of liquid takes too long for it to be a bonus action, how much of the weight is that of the vial itself vs. the liquid, and so forth. I'm just providing info for folks who want a more realistic weight for the vial and liquid. 1 oz to be swallowed quickly as a bonus action seems reasonable to me. What the weight of the potion + vial then is could be anywhere from 2 oz (i.e., typical weight for today's glass vials) vs. let's go and justify the 1/2 lb weight by saying that the vial is crafted to be difficult to break.

Go with what suits you for your campaign, playing style, and world view. I'm not making an issue here, I'm just explaining a way of looking at things mechanically for bonus action potion usage that makes sense to me.

If the weight of the bottle and the guesstimated volume of liquid is something that matters to you, there are a few choices.

1. The amount of fluid is around 4 oz and therefore it takes at a round or two to drink
2. The potion is 1 oz of liquid and the container is unusually heavy for some reason
3. Change the weight of a healing potion to whatever you think is appropriate.

There are plenty of other things we could nitpick to death. A lot of rules and decisions have accumulated over the years but D&D is not a reality simulator even if I personally envision it as an action fantasy movie emulator. This is just an odd thing to be concerned about. There's no reason to believe the potion is more than an ounce of liquid, there's every reason to believe they weren't overly concerned about the exact weight for the items list when they wrote the rules. So I would choose #3 every time.

Because the other option? That all other potions are 1 ounce and the healing potion is 4? To show how odd it would be, imagine what the potion seller's shelf would look like with 4 regular potions and 1 potion of healing

 

[Sword of Spirit]

I've had players asking if they could turn their action into a second bonus action for quite awhile now, lol. It's something you could do with 4e's Minor Action. I'm loath to allow it because while it doesn't look problematic, it would be my luck that they'd find some way to break it.

I decided that I'm allowing it on a case by case by case basis, but never to do the exact same thing twice (since preventing that is part of the point of bonus actions).

As far as the liquid drinking part, just a reminder for everyone that you can officially drink a "flagon of ale" as a free object interaction. Now that may or may not be a pint, but I have a hard time believing it's 1 ounce. So all D&D characters can chug a flagon's worth and still take their action and a possible bonus action, and move, though I imagine it's messy that way. Interpreting getting that liquid to your mouth in the first place is another matter that isn't clarified in the rules.

 

[CleverNickName]

"So let me get this straight. You want to run up the stairs, hit someone twice with your sword, then dig a potion out of your pouch, open it, and drink it right in front of him. And you want to do all of this in six seconds, without lowering your guard, without spilling the potion, and without dropping your sword or your shield. Is that what you're asking?"

"Well when you say it like that, it sounds foolish."

"Yes. It sounds very foolish indeed."

 

[Crimson Longinus]

As far as the liquid drinking part, just a reminder for everyone that you can officially drink a "flagon of ale" as a free object interaction.

That however is blatantly absurd.

 

[James Gasik]

"So let me get this straight. You want to run up the stairs, hit someone twice with your sword, then dig a potion out of your pouch, open it, and drink it right in front of him. And you want to do all of this in six seconds, without lowering your guard, without spilling the potion, and without dropping your sword or your shield. Is that what you're asking?"

"Well when you say it like that, it sounds foolish."

"Yes. It sounds very foolish indeed."

If you described most rounds of combat, though, you'd no doubt have similar results.

For example, in the Tales of the Valiant game I'm playing in, last session, my Alseid (a sort of deer-centaur) Cleric started her turn 15' up on the branch of a mighty oak. Due to her Quick Talent she has a 50' speed, and gained an equivalent Climb speed from her Heritage.

So on her turn, she descended 15', moved 10' to cast Cure Wounds on the Barbarian, used her bonus action to move 5' without provoking from an enemy (again, Quick Talent) and moved and climbed right back up to her perch with her remaining speed.

In the moment, I didn't really give it much thought, but in retrospect, that had to be rather startling to watch!

 

[Kinematics]

I still think something like a 10 or 12 second round would make more sense, I've always wondered why they settled on 6 seconds.

Most likely to keep things simple in the broader range of time conversions. They want "1 minute" as a useful amount of time, and many spells last 1 minute, but a 12 second round would only have 5 rounds per minute, which gets into the balance of how long spells last, etc.

You could make the spells last 2 minutes and get the same effect in terms of rounds, but then have more peculiar limitations in things like the Extended Spell metamagic, which only applies to spells that last more than 1 minute. That would have to be adjusted, and "2 minutes" starts feeling like a weird boundary. And this keeps going with more and more dominoes.

A 1 minute round and 10 minute spells feels a bit easier in terms of time scaling, but then brings into question things like movement speed. How can you not make it pretty much anywhere on a battlefield if you have an entire minute to move around? A sprinter can go a quarter mile in that time.

No matter what time you use, something is going to break. The 6 second round is arbitrary, and a bit stupid, but it incorporates a bunch of issues for balancing the game as a whole.

Personally I'd be up for a 12 second round, as that seems to allow a bit more breathing room in combat for theatrics, acrobatics, potions, dialog, etc, to feel a bit more natural, but without stretching out movement speed too much. But you'd definitely have to go through adjusting all the 1-minute abilities, and see what other things break around it. Maybe consider if 10 minute abilities need to be scaled up to 20 or 30 minutes; etc.

 

[AlViking]

Most likely to keep things simple in the broader range of time conversions. They want "1 minute" as a useful amount of time, and many spells last 1 minute, but a 12 second round would only have 5 rounds per minute, which gets into the balance of how long spells last, etc.

You could make the spells last 2 minutes and get the same effect in terms of rounds, but then have more peculiar limitations in things like the Extended Spell metamagic, which only applies to spells that last more than 1 minute. That would have to be adjusted, and "2 minutes" starts feeling like a weird boundary. And this keeps going with more and more dominoes.

A 1 minute round and 10 minute spells feels a bit easier in terms of time scaling, but then brings into question things like movement speed. How can you not make it pretty much anywhere on a battlefield if you have an entire minute to move around? A sprinter can go a quarter mile in that time.

No matter what time you use, something is going to break. The 6 second round is arbitrary, and a bit stupid, but it incorporates a bunch of issues for balancing the game as a whole.

Personally I'd be up for a 12 second round, as that seems to allow a bit more breathing room in combat for theatrics, acrobatics, potions, dialog, etc, to feel a bit more natural, but without stretching out movement speed too much. But you'd definitely have to go through adjusting all the 1-minute abilities, and see what other things break around it. Maybe consider if 10 minute abilities need to be scaled up to 20 or 30 minutes; etc.

I agree you'd have to tweak a lot of things that last for a minute or similar, but if we went with 10 second rounds for 6 rounds per minute, most combats are over in 6 rounds. But this is just a result of someone making a decision at some point that made sense at that time. It is reasonable for example to walk 30 feet in 6 seconds. It's a brisk pace but reasonable. Except we keep adding things on like bonus actions, pulling out items and potions during combat and whatnot so it gets a bit odd.

So I just tell my players not to get too caught up in it, it's just a convenient number to use.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

That however is blatantly absurd.

But perhaps it's telling us something about how designers intended us to interpret the flow of time in 5e?

I imagine the scene of a guy in a sword fight in a tavern. As the fight is starting he sort of leans over and grabs his flagon, whilst parrying with his sword arm (and half his attention). Then he downs the ale (again, parrying with half his attention), throws the flask away and yells, "All right, NOW I'm ready!", moves into the fray, and takes his action. (Honestly sounds like something I've seen in a movie, but I can't place it).

I'm pretty sure the designers would approve of play going like that.

 

[AlViking]

But perhaps it's telling us something about how designers intended us to interpret the flow of time in 5e?

I imagine the scene of a guy in a sword fight in a tavern. As the fight is starting he sort of leans over and grabs his flagon, whilst parrying with his sword arm (and half his attention). Then he downs the ale (again, parrying with half his attention), throws the flask away and yells, "All right, NOW I'm ready!", moves into the fray, and takes his action. (Honestly sounds like something I've seen in a movie, but I can't place it).

I'm pretty sure the designers would approve of play going like that.

Wait ... D&D is not a reality simulator? I'm shocked, shocked I say.