Zardnaar
Legend
Ranger dip if you care about masteries imho.
D&D 5E (2024) Thoughts on New Bladesinger?
- Thread starter Zardnaar
- Start date
Ranger dip if you care about masteries imho.
Tessarael
Adventurer
Taking character level 1 in Fighter gives Constitution saving throw proficiency vs. Ranger giving Dexterity saving throw proficiency. That's why I would suggest that Fighter is a better choice for a level dip. Two-weapon fighting works well with Bladesinger, which is another reason for that 1st level in Fighter to get Two-Weapon Fighting Style, which you cannot get until level 2 in Ranger.
The main benefit of the single level dip in Ranger is to avoid any reduction in access to higher level spell slots. That does make sense too. Depends exactly where your Bladesinger build is focused: if spell focused, then single-classed Wizard is best to access those highest level spells; mixed but still spell oriented, then a single level dip in Paladin or Ranger; if melee focused, then a one or two level dip in Fighter (Action Surge is so good!).
For a spell casting focused build, you should also consider Sorcerer. Taking 1st character level in Sorcerer gives Constitution saving throws for Concentration checks. At level 2 Sorcerer, you can quicken a spell once per long rest. That said, there's less motivation to level dip into Sorcerer in D&D 2024, as the Draconic archetype benefits are not given until Sorcerer level 3. In D&D 2024, those benefits were at Sorcerer level 1, making it a stronger level dip for the additional +1 HP/level and AC.
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Zardnaar
Legend
True but you dont need proficiency in con saves as much as most wizards.
Level 5 +9 saves while singing? +7 at 3?
Tessarael
Adventurer
Agreed. Your Concentrations save will be good with the Intelligence modifier bonus when singing.
It appears that the primary motivation for you for multi-classing is to pick up weapon mastery. If that's the case, I suggest to talk to your DM and ask to swap out some other class feature, to get weapon mastery instead. At best, weapon mastery is giving you an extra light weapon attack as a bonus action - that's good, but not that powerful vs. being a single-classed spell caster focused on a spell casting. I'd argue that losing the +10' movement speed bonus from Bladesinging or losing Bladework (using your Intelligence modifier instead for +attack/damage modifier), would be sufficient to swap out for weapon mastery in two weapons of your choice.
It appears that the primary motivation for you for multi-classing is to pick up weapon mastery. If that's the case, I suggest to talk to your DM and ask to swap out some other class feature, to get weapon mastery instead. At best, weapon mastery is giving you an extra light weapon attack as a bonus action - that's good, but not that powerful vs. being a single-classed spell caster focused on a spell casting. I'd argue that losing the +10' movement speed bonus from Bladesinging or losing Bladework (using your Intelligence modifier instead for +attack/damage modifier), would be sufficient to swap out for weapon mastery in two weapons of your choice.
Cap'n Kobold
Legend
Bladesong AC boost stacks with everything you have there. So it will push your AC to 23.
This matches as a baseline what a similarly-equipped fighter would be on, if the fighter focused on defence rather than damage by using a shield.
Combined with Shield and Absorb Elements, this probably means the bladesinger is more tanky than the fighter even if they aren't using false life to close the gap in HP totals.
Ulorian - Agent of Chaos
Legend
You would know!
FrogReaver
The most respectful and polite poster ever
On bladesingers - they are okay. I'm a bit disappointed they don't get extra spells known.
On wizards vs sorcerers - I believe sorcerer is stronger at combat and wizard is stronger out of combat, though the combat difference is quite a bit less pronounced at low levels.
On wizard subclasses - subclasses are probably the wizards biggest weakness, there's not a single wizard subclass that comes close to the dragon sorc subclass.
On wizards vs sorcerers - I believe sorcerer is stronger at combat and wizard is stronger out of combat, though the combat difference is quite a bit less pronounced at low levels.
On wizard subclasses - subclasses are probably the wizards biggest weakness, there's not a single wizard subclass that comes close to the dragon sorc subclass.
I'm curious about Warlock 2 vs Wizard 2.
4 adventuring days with even odds:
(1 fight)
(2 fights)
(1 fight, 1 short rest, 1 fight)
(2 fights, 1 short rest, 1 fight)
16 casting stat, 14 con, 14 dex
Level 2 Wizard.
14 HP
No armor (12 AC, or 15 if use Mage Armor)
3.5 1st level spell slots/day on average
5/8 prepared spells
3 cantrips
Rituals (for all 8 spells)
Expertise in 1 skill
At-Will damage: 6.5 (Toll the Bell)
Could swap 0.5 spells/day for a 1 hour delay at start of day to get mage armor+arcane recovery to get it back.
Level 2 Warlock
17 HP
Light armor (14 AC)
3.75 1st level spells/day on average (3/4 example days have a break long enough to recover a slot, 2/4 have a short rest)
3 invocations (Say: Agonizing Blast, Pact of the Tome, 1 other Invocation)
2+3(Tome) Cantrips
3 Warlock+2(Tome) any Rituals prepared spells
Ritual casting on 2(Tome) spells
At-Will damage: 8.5 (EB, 5.5 + Agonizing 3)
Can get Mage Armor, Fiendish Vigor, Devil's Sight, Mask of Many Faces, Misty Visions, or many other great utility Invocations. I think that beats out +2 in a skill. Being able to pick any 2 ritual tagged spells beats out Wizard rituals I think. You can cherry-pick any Ritual from any list and cast it using slots or over 10 minutes, which I think matches the Wizard "choose 5/8 each day" flexibility.
You have 3 more HP, and 2 more AC without mage armor. You have more 1st level slots over a typical adventuring day at 2nd level. Your at-will damage is higher. You have more cantrips from a wider selection.
The Wizard spell list is better than the Warlock one, on the other hand, even at 2nd level; I find it hard to find good Warlock spells even with the short number of spells known.
4 adventuring days with even odds:
(1 fight)
(2 fights)
(1 fight, 1 short rest, 1 fight)
(2 fights, 1 short rest, 1 fight)
16 casting stat, 14 con, 14 dex
Level 2 Wizard.
14 HP
No armor (12 AC, or 15 if use Mage Armor)
3.5 1st level spell slots/day on average
5/8 prepared spells
3 cantrips
Rituals (for all 8 spells)
Expertise in 1 skill
At-Will damage: 6.5 (Toll the Bell)
Could swap 0.5 spells/day for a 1 hour delay at start of day to get mage armor+arcane recovery to get it back.
Level 2 Warlock
17 HP
Light armor (14 AC)
3.75 1st level spells/day on average (3/4 example days have a break long enough to recover a slot, 2/4 have a short rest)
3 invocations (Say: Agonizing Blast, Pact of the Tome, 1 other Invocation)
2+3(Tome) Cantrips
3 Warlock+2(Tome) any Rituals prepared spells
Ritual casting on 2(Tome) spells
At-Will damage: 8.5 (EB, 5.5 + Agonizing 3)
Can get Mage Armor, Fiendish Vigor, Devil's Sight, Mask of Many Faces, Misty Visions, or many other great utility Invocations. I think that beats out +2 in a skill. Being able to pick any 2 ritual tagged spells beats out Wizard rituals I think. You can cherry-pick any Ritual from any list and cast it using slots or over 10 minutes, which I think matches the Wizard "choose 5/8 each day" flexibility.
You have 3 more HP, and 2 more AC without mage armor. You have more 1st level slots over a typical adventuring day at 2nd level. Your at-will damage is higher. You have more cantrips from a wider selection.
The Wizard spell list is better than the Warlock one, on the other hand, even at 2nd level; I find it hard to find good Warlock spells even with the short number of spells known.
SteveC
Doing the best imitation of myself
I'm playing a Bladesinger right now, but it's the 5.0 version. I looked at the changes (and Treantmonk has an excellent video where he goes over all of them) and it looks like the school got a little better. The one issue, as he points out, is does the level 14 feature allows you to piggyback that onto the extra attack feature? I expect my DM would let it, but we're not going to 5.5 so it's not an issue.
In general, I play my Bladesinger (a goblin who was raised by a previous elf character in the campaign) as a wizard who has extra options to use instead of just cantrips, when that part of the combat is upon us. With the extra attack, I can make an attack in addition to casting that cantrip.
I just wanted to comment on the "wizard is a D rating class that becomes S tier." I think that depends on how you play them. To me, a wizard can dramatically change a battle or even avoid it all together, but especially at lower levels, you have to be judicious in when you use spell slots as opposed to your cantrips.
My high level Bladesinger only has fireball because the group bought him a scroll because they collectively thought a wizard can't exist without that spell. I don't memorize it. Just doing hit point damage isn't drawing on the class strength.
To give an example of a recent game where I was playing a level 1 wizard and I basically knew the DM was using the "five room dungeon" model, I ended up casting Sleep in the first battle, which allowed us to avoid much of the fight. I used cantrips in the second battle and it went as expected, with me doing about as much as a ranged character. In the third battle, we had a boss and I cast Tasha's Hideous Laughter on them. And the DM didn't save. And that was the battle. Was that a D rating character? Well, if I had rolled poorly for Sleep, and the bad guy had made their save right off, I could have been less useful. But it worked as I expected and we had a really easy go of it. And everyone had fun because the fighter types got to do the damage and actually put the bad guys down.
Now in the other campaign I'm playing in, the wizard is an Evoker and does damage. And even at high levels, no one considers them the S-tier character.
In general, I play my Bladesinger (a goblin who was raised by a previous elf character in the campaign) as a wizard who has extra options to use instead of just cantrips, when that part of the combat is upon us. With the extra attack, I can make an attack in addition to casting that cantrip.
I just wanted to comment on the "wizard is a D rating class that becomes S tier." I think that depends on how you play them. To me, a wizard can dramatically change a battle or even avoid it all together, but especially at lower levels, you have to be judicious in when you use spell slots as opposed to your cantrips.
My high level Bladesinger only has fireball because the group bought him a scroll because they collectively thought a wizard can't exist without that spell. I don't memorize it. Just doing hit point damage isn't drawing on the class strength.
To give an example of a recent game where I was playing a level 1 wizard and I basically knew the DM was using the "five room dungeon" model, I ended up casting Sleep in the first battle, which allowed us to avoid much of the fight. I used cantrips in the second battle and it went as expected, with me doing about as much as a ranged character. In the third battle, we had a boss and I cast Tasha's Hideous Laughter on them. And the DM didn't save. And that was the battle. Was that a D rating character? Well, if I had rolled poorly for Sleep, and the bad guy had made their save right off, I could have been less useful. But it worked as I expected and we had a really easy go of it. And everyone had fun because the fighter types got to do the damage and actually put the bad guys down.
Now in the other campaign I'm playing in, the wizard is an Evoker and does damage. And even at high levels, no one considers them the S-tier character.
Zardnaar
Legend
Warlocks have the option of taking lots of origin feats. Theres three magic initiate ones. Find ones worth up casting all the time.
Warlocks also get tashas hideous laughter and are charisma based.
Spells worth upcasting.
Command, Chromatic orb, tashas, hold person and monster.
So our level 2 warlock can have 3 spells per day from 3 classes plus the short rest ones. Human wizard could take two I suppose but human warlock still has 3 plus two more origin feats.
The warlock also has Eldritch Blast so they outdanmage a wizard and tome has option of 3 more cantrips from any class and 2 rituals. Easily best spellcaster tier 1 espicially early imho.
Level 1 and 2 wizards D tier compared to all the other casters and classes imho. Just don't pick the invoker.
Warlock falls off though whole wizard ramps up every level. By level 12 Warlocks probably B tier wizard S tier at 10 or 13 depending. Right campaign co operative DM wizard gets better as well. Reverse is also true wrong campaign wrong DM (access to buying spells/rituals).
They're basically the opposite power curve wise. Warlocks never bad though and probably best designed class imho.
How good is your class at level 6 is way more relevant vs 13 let alone 20 imho.
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