D&D 5E (2024) Thoughts on New Bladesinger?

[Zardnaar]

I'd go with Valor 6, BS 6 instead.
More spell slots.

And if you hit Valor 10, you can add Smites for serious damage.

Playing from low level fighter 7 then wizards a lot smoother than Valor/BS. Less MAD as well.

Action surge+2 cantrips as well.

 

[ECMO3]

A background for +2 int, +1 con, magic initiate is not a poor choice for a bladesinger. It's one of the best.

It is weak if you want to melee and it is the equivalent of picking an Eldritch Knight background that does not boost strength and then Fighting with a Strength weapon.

We are talking about a melee character here, Dexterity is their primary ability for that.

We can quibble over whether it's the absolute best or not, but it's one of the best.

No it is not. It is a weak choice if you want to play a melee Bladesinger. There are at least half a dozen better choices. If you want to play a backline caster with some defensive options that is a different story.

How about this - limit the Eldritch Knight to a dagger, after all that is a great choice and you can get nick with it! Why don't we use that to compare numbers?

I'd vote magic initiate as being better.

For a melee Wizard it is not better than Alert. For a melee Wizard, the only PHB Origin feat that competes with Alert is Lucky.

Moreover Magic-Initate (Wizard) is the worst available Magic Intiate feat.

None of my choices were bad.

The background makes for a weaker character.

And I assumed a single cast of false life for my single encounter 4 round adventuring day. A level 3 slot since you don't have an extra 4th till you short rest.

You will cast False Life after every battle where you lose your temporary hit points as long as you have spell slots left. Assuming a "single cast" is like assuming a single use of Second Wind.

Arcane Vigor is a good call out. I'm surprised you are just now bringing it up. That's one I can easily add into the rotation.

Arcane vigor is not going to be cast a lot, but it is there if you want to use it in combat. Unless you are really getting beat up you wouldn't use it at all though.

This wasn't true. The Fighter also can cast False life in a level 2 slot and has an hp lead due to d10 vs d6 hp.

The bladesinger has every spell slot the fighter has plus 6-10 more. So your hypothetical fighter is entering 1 combat with 11 more hit points and every other combat with less hit points (assuming he gets hit)

I labeled them. 4x shield. 1x magic weapon. 1x False life (level 2).

And for comparison the Bladesinger has all those plus 2 more False Life, and I don't know lets just say an additional 2 Jump, 1 Silvery Barbs, 2 Absorb Elements, 1 Longstrider, 1 misty step and 1 Backlash.

All of these are going to improve the Bladesinger's effectivess in combat and none of them are going to compete for an action.

Level 20 is not level 7.

I played TO level 20 as in every level from level 1 to level 20.

 

[ECMO3]

This. I had to reread it a few times.

Ek 7, BS6 looks interesting. You miss out on third attack though so its not a strict upgrade.

If you are going to play a Bladesinger to high level you want to take it to level 11 because you need to be 11th level to get Contingency and that is huge.

I've played a lot of Bladesingers and a substantial number of EKs (more than any other fighter), but I have not multiclassed them together. With a Bladesinger I have dipped Monk (with a lowish 14 Intelligence), Arcane Trickster, Undead Warlock and Death Cleric.

With an EK I almost always dip Warlock, sometimes Bard or Sorcerer.

 

[Zardnaar]

It is weak if you want to melee and it is the equivalent of picking an Eldritch Knight background that does not boost strength and then Fighting with a Strength weapon.

We are talking about a melee character here, Dexterity is their primary ability for that.



No it is not. It is a weak choice if you want to play a melee Bladesinger. There are at least half a dozen better choices. If you want to play a backline caster with some defensive options that is a different story.

How about this - limit the Eldritch Knight to a dagger, after all that is a great choice and you can get nick with it! Why don't we use that to compare numbers?



For a melee Wizard it is not better than Alert. For a melee Wizard, the only PHB Origin feat that competes with Alert is Lucky.

Moreover Magic-Initate (Wizard) is the worst available Magic Intiate feat.



The background makes for a weaker character.



You will cast False Life after every battle where you lose your temporary hit points as long as you have spell slots left. Assuming a "single cast" is like assuming a single use of Second Wind.



Arcane vigor is not going to be cast a lot, but it is there if you want to use it in combat. Unless you are really getting beat up you wouldn't use it at all though.


The bladesinger has every spell slot the fighter has plus 6-10 more. So your hypothetical fighter is entering 1 combat with 11 more hit points and every other combat with less hit points (assuming he gets hit)




And for comparison the Bladesinger has all those plus 2 more False Life, and I don't know lets just say an additional 2 Jump, 1 Silvery Barbs, 2 Absorb Elements, 1 Longstrider, 1 misty step and 1 Backlash.

All of these are going to improve the Bladesinger's effectivess in combat and none of them are going to compete for an action.




I played TO level 20 as in every level from level 1 to level 20.

Long time ago I put alert in S tier. I regard the magic initiate feats as S tier as well. Ymmv.

Cant think of an S tier wizard cantrip. Guidance, Sorcererous Burst and Eldritch Blast are better cantrips. Still S overall but yeah probably the weakest.

 

[FrogReaver]

Long time ago I put alert in S tier. I regard the magic initiate feats as S tier as well. Ymmv.

Cant think of an S tier wizard cantrip. Guidance, Sorcererous Burst and Eldritch Blast are better cantrips. Still S overall but yeah probably the weakest.

IMO. Alert isn’t that great on a melee focused bladesinger. It’s really good on a control wizard though.

Still a good feat but yea.

 

[mellored]

Playing from low level fighter 7 then wizards a lot smoother than Valor/BS. Less MAD as well.

Action surge+2 cantrips as well.

Fair.
But i don't know if starting fighter really counts as a "Bladesinger" so much as a martial with cantrips.

Updating Bladesinger numbers to include Arcane Vigor

1. Turn 1: Bonus Action Blade Song. Action Cast Conjure Minor Elemental. Reaction Shield Spell.
2. Turn 2: Attack action for ~23.7 DPR. Reaction Shield Spell. Bonus Action Arcane Vigor.
3. Turn 3: Attack action for ~23.7 DPR. Reaction Shield Spell. Bonus Action Arcane Vigor.
4. Turn 4: Attack action for ~23.7 DPR. Reaction Shield Spell. Bonus Action Arcane Vigor.

You have 7 hit dice and Arcane Vigor can allow you to use all of them in the 4 round combat.

That equates to 7d6+18 = 42.5 extra hp.

HP ~105.5
AC: ~24 (with shield spell, mage armor and +2 dex, +4 int)
Damage: ~71.1

That's now 11% more hp than the EK. Still much less damage.

Slots expended.
5 level 1 (Only has 4 so 1 of these likely required a level 2 slot)
3 level 3
1 level 2
1 level 4

Remaining slots 1 level 2 and Arcane Recovery

If your going defense, dip Barbarian 1 for +2 or 3 AC.
And you can still start battles with fireball + rage, and use slots on Bladesinger 10.

 

[mellored]

Playing from low level fighter 7 then wizards a lot smoother than Valor/BS. Less MAD as well.

Action surge+2 cantrips as well.

I guess a better comparison would be.

EK7/Bladesinger 6 (2x Truestrike + Action Surge + Weapon Mastery)
Vs
Bladelock (archfey?) 7/Valor 6 (3x Eldritch Blast + Attack + Bardic Dice).

 

[ECMO3]

Long time ago I put alert in S tier. I regard the magic initiate feats as S tier as well. Ymmv.

I would agree Magic Initiate (Wizard) is generally S tier. but on a Wizard PC it is not S tier *

It is S tier on a Warlock, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Ranger, Paladin or even some noncasters, but for a Wizard, most Origin Feats are better.

* The exception to this is if you are playing an unconventional Wizard and dumping intelligence. If you are using this you might want to get the Cantrips and a Wizard spell (like THL) on a higher stat.

Cant think of an S tier wizard cantrip. Guidance, Sorcererous Burst and Eldritch Blast are better cantrips. Still S overall but yeah probably the weakest.

Truestrike is, but it is already on their list.

 

[ECMO3]

IMO. Alert isn’t that great on a melee focused bladesinger. It’s really good on a control wizard though.

Bladesinger is going to want to be in Bladesong before the enemy gets their first turn and starts using their actions if they are going to use it that battle.

I would say with any melee martial, including Bladesinger, you generally want to win initiative so you can set the battlefield positioning prior to the enemy moving, instead of responding to it. Additionally on top of this, if you want another party member to throw out an AOE or do something else before you, then you can switch with them, where you can't do that if you don't have Alert. Without Alert you would need to use the Ready action for this.

Separately initiative that beats the enemy is one more turn and one more action per combat than initiative that loses to the enemy. So when you are looking at damage over a certain number of rounds as your metric that is a significant boost and that is one of the metrics we aare using.

For example if your Wizard does 25DPR, in a 4 round combat that is 87.5 damage total if initiative is random. It is 100 damage if they win initiative and 75 damage if they lose initiative.