D&D General Thoughts on Racial Classes?

[Minigiant]

If a race or practice is soo rare that only 1 small tribe exists of it then I'd question whether it should be playable at all by a player of any race.

Well isn't the default that PCs already are the weirdos, freaks, special folk,and chosen ones of their race?
PCs already have higher stat arrays and access to rare career classes.
If there is a dwarven wizard or halfling sorcerer, it would be the PC, his mentor, his apprentice, or his family member.
The one dwarf of a kingdom of 10,000 anyone meets would be the dwarven samurai.

Only in special settings are PC like beings common.

 

[FrogReaver]

Well isn't the default that PCs already are the weirdos, freaks, special folk,and chosen ones of their race?
PCs already have higher stat arrays and access to rare career classes.
If there is a dwarven wizard or halfling sorcerer, it would be the PC, his mentor, his apprentice, or his family member.

Only in special settings are PC like beings common.

We are in agreement. That statement was posed to someone suggesting that a single small tribe may be responsible for all bladesingers. My point is if you feel it's too rare for a Dwarf to somehow have learnt the practice - then you also should feel it's too rare for someone to leave that tribe and start adventuring and end up the player party. In which case why allow it at all for any race.

My stance is that there is not a good reason to disallow a bladesinger of any race unless there's some genetic issue with a race becoming one because cross cultural activities while a rarity can easily be explained.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

I got my start in AD&D after the damage had already been done, and didn't really understand the difference until years later, but I will go to my grave swearing that separating race from class was a terrible mistake. Given that almost every single non-human race has infravision and the vast majority of them have the exact same class selection-- Fighter, Cleric, Thief, Fighter/Cleric, Fighter/Thief-- there's practically no reason to have nonhuman playable characters at all.

In my games, not only are nonhuman races restricted from playing certain core classes, they're restricted from playing any core classes at all-- each race has a handful of race-specific classes they're allowed to take, period. These classes include the traditional racial abilities and expand upon them, because class has been a much bigger design space than race for as long as the two have been separated.

Do it right, so that most races have the equivalent of most party roles and you leave some room for individual customization, it works out fine: most players don't feel stifled with the limited selection, and PCs of different races (but similar classes) end up feeling very different, even at higher levels. Plus, once you have a real firm grasp of how a given race's classes work... it's not that difficult to come up with new variations that fit that theme.

I dont know if you are playing 5e with those restrictions, but I'd sure like to see the write-up of your available classes/archetypes. I'm always trying to de-kitchen-sink-ing my take on the Forgotten realms and I think that would be an interesting way of doing it.

 

[Minigiant]

We are in agreement. That statement was posed to someone suggesting that a single small tribe may be responsible for all bladesingers. My point is if you feel it's too rare for a Dwarf to somehow have learnt the practice - then you also should feel it's too rare for someone to leave that tribe and start adventuring and end up the player party. In which case why allow it at all for any race.

My stance is that there is not a good reason to disallow a bladesinger of any race unless there's some genetic issue with a race becoming one because cross cultural activities while a rarity can easily be explained.

Oh I see. I agree.

I was just going from the other end.
If you meet a person from a group with a small population and strong culture, you will either run into a walking stereotype of the race or or a complete freak who left because they can't conform or find a place home.

You'll only see dwarven fighters, rogues, clerics, bladesingers, and feylocks.

 

[delphonso]

My problem is that nearly every attempt to paint a non-human society identifies every member of that race as being nearly uniform in practice, beliefs, situation etc.

For example, in this case you implicitly assume that it's not a Dwarf if it wasn't raised in the mountains as if it's impossible that some Dwarves were not raised in the mountains.

That's sort of the point, bub. And one of the reasons why I dislike the practice in general.

A world with racial limitations needs to be incredibly small and young to make sense. It needs to be assumed and reasonable that all dwarves are from the same place, and are only travelling in the context of the campaign.

This is basically how Tolkien's world worked. There was some travel and crossover, but rare. Exceptional events were required the few times hobbits left the shire.

 

[prosfilaes]

Yes, you may create a world where no dwarf has ever been a wizard not due to lack of capability but due to something else. My challenge is that such worlds don't typically hold up.

Most D&D worlds are atypical.

 

[FrogReaver]

Most D&D worlds are atypical.

Not typically holding up is not the same as calling them atypical. Nice attempt at minimizing my words without actually responding to their content though. A+ on that.

 

[FrogReaver]

That's sort of the point, bub. And one of the reasons why I dislike the practice in general.

A world with racial limitations needs to be incredibly small and young to make sense. It needs to be assumed and reasonable that all dwarves are from the same place, and are only travelling in the context of the campaign.

This is basically how Tolkien's world worked. There was some travel and crossover, but rare. Exceptional events were required the few times hobbits left the shire.

So small and young world where all Dwarfs literally are from one place etc. Good so far. Could be a perfect setting for racial class limitations. There's one thing nagging at me though. How would a player adventure featuring an Elf, Dwarf, Human and Halfling start in such a world? Seems none of those Races are ever going to be in the same place at the same time? I would love to hear a good explanation for this!

 

[prosfilaes]

Not typically holding up is not the same as calling them atypical. Nice attempt at minimizing my words without actually responding to their content though. A+ on that.

I've explained how there's nothing unreasonable about dwarves surviving without arcane magic; I've explained how D&D worlds don't typically hold up in that sense; I've explained that people frequently play in worlds that don't hold up. Why should I bother repeating myself?

 

[prosfilaes]

So small and young world where all Dwarfs literally are from one place etc. Good so far. Could be a perfect setting for racial class limitations. There's one thing nagging at me though. How would a player adventure featuring an Elf, Dwarf, Human and Halfling start in such a world? Seems none of those Races are ever going to be in the same place at the same time? I would love to hear a good explanation for this!

PCs are atypical, or so I hear. Again, the LotR are the example here, of where people came together literally only because of Gandalf.