D&D General Thoughts on Racial Classes?

[Fenris-77]

OSR play doesn't work without either level limits or something else in their place.

Yeah, sure. You pick a race and pick a class. The classes have level limits. The combination or race/class doesn't need to be informative there.
Whether you consider it a bug or a feature of the rules, there were two general precepts within the OSR play:

A. Games were supposed to be humanocentric (provide humans with some slight advantage over demihumans).
B. Racial abilities kicked in at first level and stayed with you.

If you combine those two aspects of the game, you end up with a gameplay riddle; how do you balance all the stuff that deminhumans get?

Mostly by taking it away. Which I'm fine with, dark vision especially. I'd also challenge the notion that OSR play is supposed to be humanocentric. I certain can be, and is in many cases is, but really doesn't have to be. The notion that it needs to be played one way or another is pretty counter to the DIY attitude that informs the movement as a whole.

 

[DammitVictor]

Whether you consider it a bug or a feature of the rules, there were two general precepts within the OSR play:

A. Games were supposed to be humanocentric (provide humans with some slight advantage over demihumans).
B. Racial abilities kicked in at first level and stayed with you.

The problem is B. Your class abilities were spread out amongst 14 levels or 20 levels or 36 levels, while everything you were ever going to get from your race you got at 1st level... and had to be balanced at 1st level against what every other race got at 1st level. The design space is too narrow to be significant beyond the earliest levels... meaning that race/class restrictions were practically the only substantial point of distinction between the dozens of player races and subraces constantly being added to the game.

And then, hey why not-- they removed those, too.

Ironically, the two big problems with races in D&D is that there's too many of them, and they're not distinct enough; if the structure of the rules required them to be more distinct, through race-as-class or racial classes, then between page count and the effort of designing them there wouldn't be such a ridiculous glut.

 

[Bawylie]

At the system level, I’m against these kind of limitations. At the setting level, I’m for limitations that define, reinforce, or make sense for the world.

“Dwarves cannot be wizards” just hanging out in the PHB doesn’t sit well with me. You give me the races and classes and I’ll put them together however I want.

“The dwarves in this game have been wiped out or driven to hide by the Old Man in the Long Winter. So they’re not a playable race and you may never meet one.” That’s fine by me. For that particular campaign.

 

[Immoralkickass]

You're quite unlikely to have a high-level spell cast on you as a low-level smuck. And being reincarnated from an elf into a half-orc is likely to have huge effects on a character.

And that right there is your problem. Being a restrictive DM is one thing, if they are upfront about it, its fine. But this is just a lack of imagination. You keep saying 'I dont understand...' Well i dont understand why can't a low level guy have a high level spell cast upon him. Its unlikely, but not impossible, and certainly not the most absurd kind of backstory ever written. Some people just have friends in high places, is that so hard to believe? I dont need to answer you other questions knowing what kind of thinking you have right now.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

....Scottish Accents offend the weave.

Which brings us back to the eternal question of why dwarves are Scottish. Personally I usually make them Australian, since they live down under.

 

[prosfilaes]

You keep saying 'I dont understand...'

Yes, because you don't write clearly. I was trying to ask politely what you mean.

Well i dont understand why can't a low level guy have a high level spell cast upon him. Its unlikely, but not impossible, and certainly not the most absurd kind of backstory ever written. Some people just have friends in high places, is that so hard to believe? I dont need to answer you other questions knowing what kind of thinking you have right now.

You don't need to answer the other questions at all; but if you wanted to have a discussion and actually figure out what I'm thinking, it might help. A DM doesn't usually want to let PCs have friends in high places, especially not for free. It's not hard to believe that some people have friends in high places; it's also not hard to believe that some people have mithril plate mail, but that doesn't mean a starting PC should start like that.

Also, I've been the DM and the person asking the DM for something. Is it that hard to accept a no without complaining about "is that so hard to believe"?

 

[Immoralkickass]

Also, I've been the DM and the person asking the DM for something. Is it that hard to accept a no without complaining about "is that so hard to believe"?

Are we asking what you would disallow if you were DM? Sure, as a DM you could say NO to anything, to the point that the players get fed up with being creative and just play a human fighter.

A DM doesn't usually want to let PCs have friends in high places, especially not for free. It's not hard to believe that some people have friends in high places; it's also not hard to believe that some people have mithril plate mail, but that doesn't mean a starting PC should start like that.

You are saying that i cant have a backstory where my father is an Archdruid just because I am low level? Listen, that's not the same as a player saying the PC inherited the family heirloom which turns out to be a Holy Avenger.

Maybe you're just not a good DM.

 

[Coroc]

The problem is B. Your class abilities were spread out amongst 14 levels or 20 levels or 36 levels, while everything you were ever going to get from your race you got at 1st level... and had to be balanced at 1st level against what every other race got at 1st level. The design space is too narrow to be significant beyond the earliest levels... meaning that race/class restrictions were practically the only substantial point of distinction between the dozens of player races and subraces constantly being added to the game.

And then, hey why not-- they removed those, too.

Ironically, the two big problems with races in D&D is that there's too many of them, and they're not distinct enough; if the structure of the rules required them to be more distinct, through race-as-class or racial classes, then between page count and the effort of designing them there wouldn't be such a ridiculous glut.

Not absolutely true, The basic expectation of later issues 1e or 2e, was not only some races get stuff at 1st level humans do not, but also that demihumans most often would play some multiclass. Multiclass for what reason ever, was considered to be more powerful than single class. (This is a point I slightly disagree with). Otoh the multiclassing guaranteed that the level limit did not hit the demihuman player that hard, so a fighter 5 / rogue 18 Halfling or a level 12/12/12 elven fighter mage thief could still be balanced with a level 19 human.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Which brings us back to the eternal question of why dwarves are Scottish. Personally I usually make them Australian, since they live down under.

Not all dwarves are Scottish. Some are Welsh or Irish. Or, if they are voiced by an American actor, float around in between.

 

[prosfilaes]

Are we asking what you would disallow if you were DM? Sure, as a DM you could say NO to anything, to the point that the players get fed up with being creative and just play a human fighter.

If you have the 20 races and 16 classes I'm offering my next campaign, and you find you can't be creative without the twelve excluded combinations of those 320 race-class combinations, I'm not sure you're very creative.

You are saying that i cant have a backstory where my father is an Archdruid just because I am low level?

You want your character to be connected to a hugely powerful figure in the world? That's problematic. As a DM, I want it to be clear that you don't get special abilities because of that, that you won't get free spellcasting or assistance. Again, I'd like it be a backstory, not an excuse, and not in any way a justification for getting extra things.