Thoughts on the edition treadmill

[Vyvyan Basterd]

I think there is a major misconception in the OP. D&D, once it bacame a cult icon, would not have perished without new editions necessarily. Therefore, the game and the hobby community itself would not have persihed.

The game needs to expand to meet the needs of the company. To meet their goals. Could the CoC model work for D&D? Sure it could, for a company with similar goals and targets as Chaosium (or whoever holds it now).

Being the 500-lb gorilla is tough sometimes. To have the strength as a company to meet the demands of their market, they have to make choices that a smaller company can avoid.

 

[TerraDave]

I'd like to propose an additional dimension to the discussion.

Consider Call of Cthulhu. An RPG, it has been through what, six editions now? I bet that there has been negligible change in the mechanics during that time. Most of the changes are probably in layout, art and perhaps different or expanded guidance?

Do you think D&D would work with the CoC model of editions?

Cheers

CoC is both a much more focused game, and, heresy alert, was a better desinged game when it came out.

Of course, some day they should be able to get D&D to this stage.

 

[prosfilaes]

Looking at GURPS, first there was GURPS 3rd edition. (Okay, so that's an obvious half-truth, but previous editions didn't have many books compared to the later ones, and the ones they did have I don't generally own.) Then at some point, so much came along that they wanted to stop having to reprint generic stuff in every book, so they collected it all into Compendium I...and while they were doing this, it seemed like a perfect time to change some of the point values outside the main book that seemed clearly wrong in retrospect. Net, they added 1 core book, 1 nominally core book (though I never saw the point in Compendium II) and changed a number of point values, though nothing core. All in the name of a better game, and unless you want the game frozen in carbonite, hard to argue against.

GURPS 4th Edition was a little bit more major; it was a chance, the first in a decade, to fix some problems that had come up in core, rebalance some point values, make things work better across a range of scales. At the same time, it was a reason to reset the publishing standard and make all the books hardcovers with full-color art (in hopes that would make a difference in sales) and reëdit and republish old material. Given that GURPS is not supporting Steve Jackson Games, and some of their new PDF-only material is selling less than 500 copies over a couple years, I'm not sure you can blame them for wanting to try something to keep their sales up.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

CoC is both a much more focused game, and, heresy alert, was a better desinged game when it came out.

Of course, some day they should be able to get D&D to this stage.

I'm not convinced "they" can. As you said, CoC is very focused. It does what it does well. But D&D, even though it is of the fantasy genre, is expected to do much more by its average player. And each of these players wants something different from their game and has their own beliefs about the "right" way to approach these issues. You will never be able to please everyone. Nor can CoC, but the people not pleased by CoC don't play CoC.

 

[Sunseeker]

CoC is both a much more focused game, and, heresy alert, was a better desinged game when it came out.

Of course, some day they should be able to get D&D to this stage.

I'm not convinced "they" can. As you said, CoC is very focused. It does what it does well. But D&D, even though it is of the fantasy genre, is expected to do much more by its average player. And each of these players wants something different from their game and has their own beliefs about the "right" way to approach these issues. You will never be able to please everyone. Nor can CoC, but the people not pleased by CoC don't play CoC.

This.

D&D can never be focused because the nature of D&D is to be as wide and open as possible. Multiple worlds, paralell dimensions, evil hells, ect... None of these work very much like the others, each have their own unique features and such. CoC is just "try not to go crazy", the world is small, explicit, and limited. It does one thing very well.

D&D does many things, and because of this, can never be "streamlined" like CoC.

 

[xechnao]

I do not get what you are saying regarding the focus problem. 4e for example is very focused as some kind of minis game and its tactics.

 

[jmucchiello]

The RPG industry has a dirty secret. You don't need multiple editions of any game. You don't even need one. Once you understand how RPGs work, you don't need any rules to run a successful game. All RPG rules are just window dressing. You don't need a million and one supplements about Orcs of the East and Orcs of the West. You don't need a million monster books. You don't need premade adventures. You don't need Fighter Using Long Swords distinct from Fighters Using Short Swords. All you need is a GM who can keep the game moving smoothly. Whether he has a rulebook or is just good with probability doesn't matter.

6 year olds have played Let's Pretend for centuries. Only maturity is needed to avoid "Did not! Did too!" arguments. Rules can help but maturity is far more important than rules.

 

[BryonD]

The RPG industry has a dirty secret. You don't need multiple editions of any game. You don't even need one. ...

Absolutely true.

However, I think nearly all of us that bother to post here would agree that *good* games still add value, even with the fact that the need isn't there. And, most certainly the need for new EDITIONS of a game is even more remote.

So, from a gamer point of view, the industry doesn't need to exist. But also from a gamer point of view, we WANT the industry to exist. And the industry can't exist without cash flow. And even with the wide breadth of design area available, the fields eventually become plowed. The money stops flowing, or at least slows down enough that the crop dies.

So WE don't need new editions. But our WANTS need new editions.

 

[Plane Sailing]

This.

D&D can never be focused because the nature of D&D is to be as wide and open as possible. Multiple worlds, paralell dimensions, evil hells, ect... None of these work very much like the others, each have their own unique features and such. CoC is just "try not to go crazy", the world is small, explicit, and limited. It does one thing very well.

D&D does many things, and because of this, can never be "streamlined" like CoC.

I disagree - although CoC itself is a particular campaign setting, I consider the strength and flexibility of the underlying rules system as the main reason why they haven't needed to redesign it periodically. The BRP from 1977 does a brilliant job for fantasy (Runequest) and has been used very successfully for things as varied as Dark Sun, Empire of the Petal Throne, Eberron and sci-fi. No change to the fundamentals, just defining additional spells or equipment within the existing framework.

Class based systems (or other systems with strong archetypes) benefit from having easy niches for beginners to fit into, but may need more redesigns to keep them fresh or bring in new stuff as they lack the essential flexibility.

When it comes down to it, the change from 1e to 2e was largely cosmetic; there were some class and race changes but everything essentially functioned the same way. That was in fact at CoC style new edition. 3e was a huge change in mechanics across the board, 3.5e was roughly equivalent to the 1e ->2e change, 4e is a huge chance across the board again.

Cheers

 

[TheAuldGrump]

That's not "winning." That's called progression.

When, at the end of an RPG session have you ever pumped your fist, looked at the other players around the table, and uttered the words, "I win!"? (Barring of course that you're playing a game that encourages player vs. player competition. It's my understanding and experience that most P&P RPGs do not.)

For Baron Munchhausen? Certainly. But that game is a bit different, being an RPG of 'drinking, gambling, and competitive lying'. Oh, and winning means you have to buy the drinks (always more than you make on the gambling pot....)

The Auld Grump, so there I was, stranded off the coast of Madagascar....