Thrallherd - Confusing much?

[wlmartin]

This seems pretty basic to me.
If one of your attacks said "Int+2 vs AC" what would it mean?
It means exactly the same here (this is what the "you attack through the thrall" means).
So it is Your Int Mod + Half Your Level + 2 + proficiency bonus (as the Thrall does Weapon keyworded attacks) + enhancement bonus (+feat/item/etc bonuses).

The attacks the Thrall has use a weapon it is weilding or its natural weapons, which are assumed to be +3prof/1d10dam (like a bastard sword) or +2prof/1d12dam (like a greataxe).
So basically if you don't give it a specific weapon, assume it wields its natural weapons (and you choose whether you want your thrall to be accurate or damaging by picking the natural weapon that reflects what you want).

If you do give the Thrall a cool weapon it can use the properties and enhancement bonus on that weapon for the attack, or the propties and enhancement on your implement for the attack, but not both - you get to decide which you would prefer each attack.

Ah so i think I get it

If your attack bonus to hit was as follows :
Psion 11th Level with Orb of Mental Domination +3
+5 int mod
+5 half level
+3 enhancement bonus
+1 feat bonus - Orb Expertise
+2 (Stated in the attack)
+2/+3 Weapon Proficency

That is 18-19 + d20 vs AC?

This just seems seriously broken...

 

[Nichwee]

Yep that seems right.
And it is no more broken than a fighter with +5 Str mod attacking with a bastard sword or a greataxe (assuming it was a magic +3 weapon so had the same enhancement bonus).

This is basically what the thrall does: It gives you a fighter that uses your good stat (Int) to do melee attacks, as an alternative to you using your powers. You have to use a Standard to make the Thrall attack so it just replaces your normal standard action (or it replaces your OppAttack per turn to do its OppAttack).

And remember, if you get a +4 Longsword Of Lightning (say) you could give that to your Thrall and use the +4 Enhancement Bonus instead of using your +3 Orb (and the prof bonus would be fixed at +3 and the [W] would be 1d8 as weilding a longsword fixes these propeties to those of a longsword) - and the attack would gain perks from the Lightning Property on the sword instead of whatever bonuses the Orb gives. This choice is per attack btw.

 

[wlmartin]

Yep that seems right.
And it is no more broken than a fighter with +5 Str mod attacking with a bastard sword or a greataxe (assuming it was a magic +3 weapon so had the same enhancement bonus).

This is basically what the thrall does: It gives you a fighter that uses your good stat (Int) to do melee attacks, as an alternative to you using your powers. You have to use a Standard to make the Thrall attack so it just replaces your normal standard action (or it replaces your OppAttack per turn to do its OppAttack).

And remember, if you get a +4 Longsword Of Lightning (say) you could give that to your Thrall and use the +4 Enhancement Bonus instead of using your +3 Orb (and the prof bonus would be fixed at +3 and the [W] would be 1d8 as weilding a longsword fixes these propeties to those of a longsword) - and the attack would gain perks from the Lightning Property on the sword instead of whatever bonuses the Orb gives. This choice is per attack btw.

So the old rule of Stackable Bonuses vs Non Stackable Bonuses... I sorta get it!

What I dont get is how I am able to use my implement as well as his weapon. Surely it should be a case of

Attacking through him with my Orb as the Implement
+3 enhancement bonus
+1 feat bonus - Orb Expertise
+2 (Stated in the attack)
+0 Weapon Proficency

Attacking through him with his +4 Longsword as the Weapon
+4 enhancement bonus
+0 feat bonus - Orb Expertise
+2 (Stated in the attack)
+3 Weapon Proficiency

In this example : By using my own Orb, I am thrusting his arm to attack, like a Puppeteer manipulating strings... however if he attacks with his sword, I am planting the command in his head to attack, thus he uses his weapon


I just dont get how my feat bonus for using an Orb can stack with his weapon... surely it should be one or the other?

 

[Nichwee]

I look at it as "replicating your magic item, and related effects/bonuses on his weapon" and guiding him with your skill.

His attack is done wielding a weapon (even if it is his natural weapons) but it gets help from you as you are directing him (and you do this through your implement - hence Orb Mastery works).

And you can make his weapon magically a "replica" of your implement to give him your enhancement bonuses and properties for the attack if you want (so he can do psychic damage on a crit), but you can choose to let him use any magic his weapon may have instead (so the +4 Lightning Longsword would allow him to hit with lightning damage and use the Daily to splash damage out to those around)

 

[wlmartin]

I look at it as "replicating your magic item, and related effects/bonuses on his weapon" and guiding him with your skill.

His attack is done wielding a weapon (even if it is his natural weapons) but it gets help from you as you are directing him (and you do this through your implement - hence Orb Mastery works).

And you can make his weapon magically a "replica" of your implement to give him your enhancement bonuses and properties for the attack if you want (so he can do psychic damage on a crit), but you can choose to let him use any magic his weapon may have instead (so the +4 Lightning Longsword would allow him to hit with lightning damage and use the Daily to splash damage out to those around)

I suppose... just dont see much support on this through RAW and such, typically because there is pretty much only DOMINATE power effect that permits control over another and that is limited to what it can/cant do... surely if WotC were smart they would have put a lot more into explaining Thrallherd since its a lot more involved.

For example : If they had put in that the power being used was a Weapon attack (in the power block), it would deny you the ability to use an implement just as if it would deny you to use an implement if attacking with a Melee Weapon attack.


I really dont see it... As far as the book says, you add your Int modifier (modified for level) +2 to the attack... there is no mention of it using feats and bonuses and whilst this is not usually needed, since most of the time when you attack you are doing so AS YOURSELF its implied but to transfer that implied bonus stack to your THRALL is IMO broken.

I get that you are permitted to use a magical effect from the implement you have but that isnt clarified. Does this mean you can use the enhancement? The power type? The conditional effects?

In my mind, the only thing you should be able to do is substitute your Int modifier for their strength modifier when it comes to the attack roll... if they have proficiency or enhancements from the weapon they carry - great! but to add in your own implement bonuses just doesnt sit right with me.

If you had a proficiency with the weapon they carry that is BETTER than theirs, I could get substituting that but chances you wont.



The problem is... that the RAW doesnt support my understanding or any of those that posted, the only thing it says is that the Thrall gets a proficiency bonus for the weapon they use... and it can be assumed this is added to the attack roll... it doesnt say anything about being able to use feat and implement bonuses instead of or as well.

Since there is no other example of the ability to control a creature in such a way, the lack of rules written about it is seriously annoying!!

 

[Nichwee]

I really dont see it... As far as the book says, you add your Int modifier (modified for level) +2 to the attack... there is no mention of it using feats and bonuses and whilst this is not usually needed, since most of the time when you attack you are doing so AS YOURSELF its implied but to transfer that implied bonus stack to your THRALL is IMO broken.

Don't forget you are making the attack through your thrall. So it is basically written up as though it was one of your powers, but with a few special facts.
1) It uses a weapon for damage and range, and allows proficiency bonus to get around attacking AC.
2) As it is one of your attacks but uses a weapon involved too, it can use both but you can't stack Enhancement bonuses, crit effects and properties - so you apply your implement's magic or the magic of the weapon not both.

Stop trying to think of it as "I say 'Attack' and my thrall does the rest".
You do it all, so your feats, items, etc apply - except where indicated otherwise in Points 1) and 2).
This is the issue with the design of 4ed. If you aren't told otherwise assume base rules. Base rules indicate you can add feats and items etc into the mix of your attacks (and you are attacking - just "through" the thrall) so you can use them on this.

I do agree they could have done with writing the special actions up as full powers, with Special lines to cover the oddities, but they tried not to use that much room. I suspect the errata may well have put things more clearly (but I haven't checked - I just read up the original as I had it to hand).

As for broken, how is it any better than you attacking with your other powers - you get to add all your bonuses then, so why not now? You are basically given the ability to do the same sort of thing as summons, just with a few oddities. Such as [W] instead of flat damage, and porficiency bonuses (but then you have to attack AC which summons rarely do, unless compensated for)

 

[wlmartin]

Don't forget you are making the attack through your thrall. So it is basically written up as though it was one of your powers, but with a few special facts.
1) It uses a weapon for damage and range, and allows proficiency bonus to get around attacking AC.
2) As it is one of your attacks but uses a weapon involved too, it can use both but you can't stack Enhancement bonuses, crit effects and properties - so you apply your implement's magic or the magic of the weapon not both.

Stop trying to think of it as "I say 'Attack' and my thrall does the rest".
You do it all, so your feats, items, etc apply - except where indicated otherwise in Points 1) and 2).
This is the issue with the design of 4ed. If you aren't told otherwise assume base rules. Base rules indicate you can add feats and items etc into the mix of your attacks (and you are attacking - just "through" the thrall) so you can use them on this.

I do agree they could have done with writing the special actions up as full powers, with Special lines to cover the oddities, but they tried not to use that much room. I suspect the errata may well have put things more clearly (but I haven't checked - I just read up the original as I had it to hand).

This does make sense.
Thanks

So as long as I am not stacking identical bonuses, I am fine.

I get the whole, attacking THROUGH him - as if he is just a meat puppet and I am not so much COMMANDING him as USING him as a weapon.

It does feel a bit like cheating where the IMPLEMENT and WEAPON prof. can stack together since in a typical enviroment they wouldn't (ie you couldnt use two in one power) so it feels like that is an exploit where somehow you should substitute the weapon used by the Thrall for the Implement you may use during the power.

After all... if you think about it, you are using his weapon... you are getting the proficiency for using that weapon as if you were him and you make the weapon attack.... whilst you could roleplay that you twiddle your crystal ball before making the attack, really you arent and you are attacking through him.

For that reason and unless someone could prove to me otherwise, I accept that you get Int modifiers, certain feat bonuses etc but anything that relates to using an implement should be treated as either

a) You use the implement to judge proficiency for the attack
b) You use the Thralls Weapon to judge proficiency for the attack

To use both is cheating since controlling the Thrall is in no way tied to an implement.

I just cant see both being used at the same time... one over the other but then if you do use one over the other the enhancement bonuses should apply to the one you are using.

Grrrrrrr - i started this post by agreeing with what was said and have talked myself back into a corner.

You cant use Implement and Weapon profs. together - show me how you can because I cant see any rules that say you can and if this is the exception they did a bad job of making it that way without a better explanation.

 

[Nichwee]

I agree that it the truncated fashion they wrote it it is odd, but the fact you can use the magic from your implement suggests it should use your implement in some way, and it is imo unfair to give you an attack that loses out on your feats etc without giving you anything in return.

Gaining the proficiency bonus is not "giving you anything " btw, as it just addresses that this attack is against AC not NADs (which the prof is designed to compensate for).
If you really find it hard to justify treat it as an Implement power with the following extras:
Special : The thrall gains a bonus to this attack equal to the prificiency bonus of the weapon it wields.
Special : If the thrall is wielding a magic weapon you may choose to apply, to this attack, the weapon's enhancement bonus, crit effects, properties and powers instead of those of the implement you used for this attack.

This covers the exact same affect as what they said but allows you to see that as you use an implement with the power (even if that implement's magic is not used in calculating ToHit and Damage) you would get all your abilities and feats as bonuses even if they are related to using the implement. You still used the implement, you just didn't use its magic.

Now I may be wrong on how this is supposed to work, but this makes the most sense (to me) with what they have written, how the rules normally work for attacking through something else and being balanced with just using a normal power (No reason to lose ToHit or Damage effect/feats just for being able to say "My Thrall did that" imo). Sometimes 4Ed rules are not intuitive but they are generally worked to be balanced if played as is (or they errata to make them so).

 

[wlmartin]

I agree that it the truncated fashion they wrote it it is odd, but the fact you can use the magic from your implement suggests it should use your implement in some way, and it is imo unfair to give you an attack that loses out on your feats etc without giving you anything in return.

Gaining the proficiency bonus is not "giving you anything " btw, as it just addresses that this attack is against AC not NADs (which the prof is designed to compensate for).
If you really find it hard to justify treat it as an Implement power with the following extras:
Special : The thrall gains a bonus to this attack equal to the prificiency bonus of the weapon it wields.
Special : If the thrall is wielding a magic weapon you may choose to apply, to this attack, the weapon's enhancement bonus, crit effects, properties and powers instead of those of the implement you used for this attack.

This covers the exact same affect as what they said but allows you to see that as you use an implement with the power (even if that implement's magic is not used in calculating ToHit and Damage) you would get all your abilities and feats as bonuses even if they are related to using the implement. You still used the implement, you just didn't use its magic.

Now I may be wrong on how this is supposed to work, but this makes the most sense (to me) with what they have written, how the rules normally work for attacking through something else and being balanced with just using a normal power (No reason to lose ToHit or Damage effect/feats just for being able to say "My Thrall did that" imo). Sometimes 4Ed rules are not intuitive but they are generally worked to be balanced if played as is (or they errata to make them so).

Thanks

One thing that bothers me more than anything

What is with the INT +2?

This implies there is some kind of accuracy at play (as this is the kind of bonus you get when using accurate fighter attacks over power attacks)

Perhaps the +2 here is in fact meant to be the proficiency bonus and they didnt add the write information in.

IE : It should be int + Prof. instead of int +2 (so ie int +2 or int +3 typically)

The thing is... if the +2 is there to account for the fact that you lose your Implement bonuses somehow, that makes sense.

Otherwise - why is there?

 

[Ryujin]

Umm...

What about this?

Sorry, I pulled the text from Compendium and did a search, but didn't catch that. Yes, that's what it means.