Threat on a 3 or better?

[Baron Von StarBlade]

True, but pretty irrelevant in a rules discussion.

Not really since what we're discussing is actually defined as a variant rule in the DMG. Last time I checked a variant rule was nothing more than a Wotc supplied House rule.

 

[kreynolds]

Not really since what we're discussing is actually defined as a variant rule in the DMG.

Monsters having class levels is a variant rule? I know monsters as races is a variant, but I've never heard of the former. Do you happen to have a referrence? Honestly, and I mean no insult, but I think you're confusing monsters w/classes with monsters as races.

 

[the Jester]

Actually you need to look at how the creature in question advances. In this case it advances by Hitdice, not character level so you wouldn't be able to add fighter levels.

Er... I don't think so. The DMG has examples of a troll fighter, if I recall correctly, and the MM provides for HD advancement. There are also a number of examples of creatures that are stated to advance by HD in the stat blocks that also have details on clerics in their write-up.

 

[the Jester]

Okay I'll bite on this one. Where does it state what the minimum intelligence is to have a character class?

I don't think it does, and I don't have a problem with tacking class levels onto something without much intelligence if it helps customize a concept that I have (such as the truly foul-tempered dog with a level of barbarian).

 

[Baron Von StarBlade]

Monsters having class levels is a variant rule? I know monsters as races is a variant, but I've never heard of the former. Do you happen to have a referrence? Honestly, and I mean no insult, but I think you're confusing monsters w/classes with monsters as races.

No insult is taken but if you look at pg 14 of the Monster Manual under the creatures with character levels sub heading, it states to use the Monster as Races rules for giving character classes to a monster. Therefore if you want to give a creature character levels then doing so is a variant rule.

 

[Baron Von StarBlade]

Er... I don't think so. The DMG has examples of a troll fighter, if I recall correctly, and the MM provides for HD advancement. There are also a number of examples of creatures that are stated to advance by HD in the stat blocks that also have details on clerics in their write-up.

Trolls advance by character level. However they do give examples of using a Blink Dog or a Unicorn which do advance by HD. Again this is using the variant rule though.

 

[Thanee]

However, a number of other creatures have the augmented critical ability as well. The nightmare beast, for example, has it; it also has the improved crit feat (thus they stack). The augmented crit ability gives it a natural threat range of 19-20, with improved crit it goes to 18-20. However, 12-20 doesn't halve so easily...

The jarilith demon also has the augmented critical ability, and its threat range is 18-20. Humm, so it can't be a simple doubling of the threat range...

Strange...

So augmented critical does either set a base threat range (what you thought initially), or it just works like a double strength improved critical or somesuch, but the nightmare beast seems to have only a single strength improved critical there.

It could also give a varying bonus to the threat range, thereby not increasing the base threat range, and therefore improved critical would still work off the base threat range, which usually is 20, and in case of the monster you mentioned should be 18-20 (like the rapier).

I'd improve it from 12-20 to 9-20 with improved critical, that makes the most sense definitely and is really good enough!

Anyways, monsters can usually only advance as given in the advancement section. If it doesn't say "by character class", it cannot gain a class, but since it can also gain feats by advancing via hit dice, this is not really of major importance for the question at hand.

Note, that WotC has already broken this rule (i.e. in Enemies & Allies or Heart of Nightfang Spire <- what a sucky adventure this is).

Bye
Thanee

 

[kreynolds]

No insult is taken but if you look at pg 14 of the Monster Manual under the creatures with character levels sub heading, it states to use the Monster as Races rules for giving character classes to a monster.

It also referrences the Player's Handbook, which is not a variant in any way, shape or form.

I don't think the referrence in the MM to the DMG is establishing monsters with classes as a variant rule. It seems to me that it is referrenced to illustrate the method by which you calculate the character level of monsters with classes. This in turn illustrates how you calculate the monster's CR as well.

Therefore if you want to give a creature character levels then doing so is a variant rule.

I'm still not convinced though. I just don't see any compelling evidence that lends to the theory that monsters with class levels (without being specifically stated in their advancement descriptor) is a house rule.

 

[LGodamus]

Try this,any monster with 3 or higher int can gain class levels. For those of you who believe this is a house rule and say that it isnt specifically worded this way..you may be right, but consider this , there is precedent for it. Look at Dragons in your MM....see their advancement? right it lists only hit dice.....but WOTC has stated many times that dragons can gain class levels...they even have them statted out for download.....and their sorcerer levels even stack with their virtual levels......also look at fight club on their website..I know most of those characters are goofy but they are meant to show what can be done with the system...look at the character Fleshcutter...he is a gargoyle...now look up a gargoyles advancement...right only by HD no listing of class levels.......are we understanding yet.....from this it is very easy to imply that any monster with intelligence can advance as a class.

Back on topic however..i would set the crit range at 9-20 considering in the descrip it does state the creature is using rapiers.....

 

[Thanee]

It's a variant rule to allow monster races for player characters. Monsters with class levels are standard for monsters which have "by character class" listed in their Advancement line.

Bye
Thanee