Threat on a 3 or better?

[Mulkhoran]

No insult is taken but if you look at pg 14 of the Monster Manual under the creatures with character levels sub heading, it states to use the Monster as Races rules for giving character classes to a monster. Therefore if you want to give a creature character levels then doing so is a variant rule.

The section you're referencing says this:


"If a creature acquires a character class, it follows the rules for multiclassing described on pages 55-56 in the Player's Handbook. The creature's character level equals the number of class levels it has, plus the total Hit Dice for such beings. For example, an ogre normally has 4 HD. If it picks up one barbarian level, it becomes a 5th-level character: 1st-level Barbarian/4th-level ogre (its "monster class") and adds 1d12 to its hit point total. Creatures with 1 or fewer HD use only their character levels (see Monsters as Races, page 22 in the Dungeon Master's Guide, for details). "


The bold text is my emphasis. This pretty clearly points out that the Monsters as Races rule only comes into effect when the monster has 1 or less HD.

 

[kreynolds]

This pretty clearly points out that the Monsters as Races rule only comes into effect when the monster has 1 or less HD.

Actually, the "monsters as races" rule only truly comes into effect when it involves a player, regardless of hit die. The referrence is so that you can learn how to calculate the monster's new character level.

 

[Baron Von StarBlade]

I don't think the referrence in the MM to the DMG is establishing monsters with classes as a variant rule. It seems to me that it is referrenced to illustrate the method by which you calculate the character level of monsters with classes. This in turn illustrates how you calculate the monster's CR as well.

I agree but it also serves as a guide for when you should and should not apply class levels to a monster.

I'm still not convinced though. I just don't see any compelling evidence that lends to the theory that monsters with class levels (without being specifically stated in their advancement descriptor) is a house rule.

Well then again I ask where does it state what creatures can and can not gain character levels? I have given my examples of where in the Core rulebooks it states when a creature can gain character levels. Otherwise you could have a Black pudding with ranger levels or assassin vines with rogue levels.

 

[Baron Von StarBlade]

Try this,any monster with 3 or higher int can gain class levels. For those of you who believe this is a house rule and say that it isnt specifically worded this way..you may be right

That's all I am saying. It is a house rule to apply character levels to any monster that doesn't explicitly state in the advancement column that they can gain character levels.

 

[Baron Von StarBlade]

It's a variant rule to allow monster races for player characters. Monsters with class levels are standard for monsters which have "by character class" listed in their Advancement line.

I'm concerned with the monsters that don't have by character class in the Advancement column.

 

[Ferret]

I thought it's rapiers where keen improved stuff

 

[Baron Von StarBlade]

The bold text is my emphasis. This pretty clearly points out that the Monsters as Races rule only comes into effect when the monster has 1 or less HD.

So what you're saying is that only monsters with less than 1 HD can have character levels. Okay that clears things up.



On a completely unrelated note, this is a good way to get my post count up.

 

[LGodamus]

Well if you notice I said might be right...for the simple fact I havent been able to find otherwise ,yet. I still maintain any intelligent monster may advance by class......

 

[Thanee]

I'm concerned with the monsters that don't have by character class in the Advancement column.

Yeah, those usually cannot have character classes, but as I said earlier, WotC has broken this "rule" on numerous occasions already!

Bye
Thanee

 

[kreynolds]

I agree but it also serves as a guide for when you should and should not apply class levels to a monster.

I don't see how. Only common sense serves as a guide to when you should or should not apply class levels to a monster. There are no rules, that I'm aware of, stating that you cannot add class levels to monsters.

Well then again I ask where does it state what creatures can and can not gain character levels?

I already answered this. You didn't like my answer. I interpret it one way and you interpret it another. It's just a difference of opinion, but asking me over and over will not get you a different answer.

I have given my examples of where in the Core rulebooks it states when a creature can gain character levels.

Yes, you have, and we disagree. Simple as that.

Otherwise you could have a Black pudding with ranger levels or assassin vines with rogue levels.

This is where that common sense thing comes into play. If it doesn't make sense, don't do it. I don't see any reason why a Balor shouldn't be able to take fighter or barbarian levels. I perfectly understand why a Black Pudding shouldn't be able to take wizard levels.