Thrikreen Flurry of Blows?

[Hannibal Barca]

Does a thrikreen monk that uses Flurry of Blows get 5 claw attacks a round?

 

[Crothian]

Can a human monk fight two handed and flurry in the same round for 3 attacks?

the answer should be the same.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Does a thrikreen monk that uses Flurry of Blows get 5 claw attacks a round?

No. A Flurry of Blows can include only unarmed strikes or special monk weapons. If a thri-kreen attacks with his flurry, he does damage as a regular monk, and gets the normal number of attacks. However, his claw attacks can then be considered secondary attacks. Normally, a monk may make an attack in addition to his regular attacks (and flurry attacks) with an off-hand weapon (this can be his unarmed strike). He takes the usual penalties for fighting with two weapons, on top of the penalty given by Flurry of Blows. This penalty applies to all attacks he makes in the round.

When a creature with natural attacks uses a manufactured weapon, it can then make its natural attacks as secondary attacks. These attacks are made at a -5 penalty (or -2 if it has the Multiattack feat). This penalty, unlike the penalty from an off-handed attack, is not applied to all attacks made in the round. Theoretically, a creature can attack with a weapon, make an off-hand attack with another weapon, and then make a secondary attack with natural weapons, assuming it has natural attacks that don't require the limbs that are holding the weapons. The natural attacks will take the -5 penalty, as well as the (at least -2) penalty from the off-hand attack.

Monks are a special case, because they don't need to use their hands to make unarmed strikes. So a first level thri-kreen monk (BAB +2) can make a flurry of blows for two attacks (1d6 damage each), at +0/+0, then make four claw attacks and one bite attack at a -5 each. These attacks each do 1d4 damage, rather than 1d6, because they are not unarmed strike attacks, but are instead claw and bite attacks, and never improve in damage as the monk increases in level.

A 1st level thri-kreen monk with Two-Weapon Fighting could make a flurry for two attacks at -2/-2, then an off-hand attack at -2, and then four claw attacks and a bite each at -7. Why you would want to bother, I have no idea. However, the off-hand attack can be an unarmed strike, or an attack with any light weapon the monk is proficient with. Even if the monk uses the light weapon as his off-hand attack, he cannot use it during the flurry unless it is a special monk weapon (if, for example, it were a cold iron dagger, he couldn't use it to strike something with DR x/cold iron while flurrying. If it were a cold iron sai, that would be okay).

In any case, if you have the Multiattack feat, the natural attacks would be made at -2 and -4, respectively. A 1st level Thri-kreen monk could do worse than to take Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack as his two feats, but he could probably also do better.

Complicated enough?

edit: also, some people apparently support the idea that a monstrous monk should be able to do unarmed strike damage when making natural weapon attacks, but I've never seen any support for the position in the RAW.

 

[Hannibal Barca]

Thank you for the reply. And yes, it is thoroughly complicated.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

And, not to put too fine a point on it, I disagree with Dr. Akward on nearly all points.

First, we'll cover the general case of mixing manufactured weapons with natural weapons.

Anyone who has both can mix them in a single full attack action. This can be a thrikreen monk, a lizardman with a sword, a skeleton with a hammer, etc. Whenever you mix the two, your manufactured weapons (which, for these purposes, an unarmed strike is considered) are considered your primary attacks. They work normally as per your normal attacking rules, including any modifications due to two-weapon fighting if you choose to use it.

Your natural weapons are considered your secondary weapons - note "secondary," not "off-hand." You can attack with every natural weapon you have (that isn't otherwise occupied*), but each is made at a -5 penalty from your normal attack bonus, and each only applies one-half of your Strength bonus to damage.

For example, consider a lizardman fighter. He's got three natural attacks: claw, claw, and bite. His claws are his primary natural attacks, and his bite his secondary natural attack. When he makes a full attack action, he attacks once with each claw at his highest BAB and once with his bite at his highest BAB, though it has a -5 penalty and only applies 1/2 his Strength bonus to damage.

Now, arm the lizardman with a sword. *One of his claws is now occupied in holding the sword, and is unavailable. When he makes a full attack, he gets to choose whether or not to use the sword. If he uses the sword, it's considered his primary attack. He attacks with it as normal, and then gets to make two additional attacks with his natural weapons: 1 claw and 1 bite. In this case, both are treated as secondary natural weapons, so each attack with them is made at his highest BAB, but with a -5 penalty and only applying 1/2 his Strength bonus to damage.

Now, arm the lizardman with another sword - an off-hand shortsword. Both of his claws are now unavailable. When he attacks, he can choose whether or not to take the two-weapon fighting penalties and attack with both his sword and his shortsword. If he does so (and assuming he has the TWF feats), he takes a penalty of -2 / -2 to his attacks. This penalty does not apply to his natural weapons - in this case, his bite. It has a -5 penalty from his normal, highest BAB attack, and only applies 1/2 his Strength bonus to damage, but it is not affected by the TWF penalties, which only apply to his main hand and his off-hand.

The trick with monks is that it doesn't require any hands at all to make monk attacks (or, really, any unarmed strike). Accordingly, a lizardman monk taking the full attack action can attack with his normal unarmed attacks and then with each claw and his bite.

Which leads us into the specific case of a lizardman (or thrikreen) monk using Flurry of Blows. When using FoB, a monk is limited to unarmed strikes and special monk weapons.

A natural attack is not a monk weapon.

Thus, a thrikreen monk who is using FoB is not permitted to use his claws as part of that full attack action.

If he doesn't Flurry, he can use his claws. If he does Flurry, he cannot.

Furthermore, a monk who flurries cannot make further "off-hand" attacks with a non-monk weapon. The FAQ is in error when it states that this is possible.

 

[Iku Rex]

When using FoB, a monk is limited to unarmed strikes and special monk weapons.

A natural attack is not a monk weapon.

Thus, a thrikreen monk who is using FoB is not permitted to use his claws as part of that full attack action.

It does not follow. Your conclusion is based on an unstated premise - "all attacks in a round where the monk performs a flurry of blows must be part of the flurry of blows" - which is not found in the rules and contradicted by clarifications in the official FAQ.

Furthermore, a monk who flurries cannot make further "off-hand" attacks with a non-monk weapon. The FAQ is in error when it states that this is possible.

Why?

 

[glass]

It does not follow. Your conclusion is based on an unstated premise - "all attacks in a round where the monk performs a flurry of blows must be part of the flurry of blows" - which is not found in the rules and contradicted by clarifications in the official FAQ.

The rules never explicitly state that you cannot make more attacks in a round than they specifically allow, but it's fairly strongly implied!


glass.

 

[glass]

Why?

Because a flurry of blows is a full attack, which is a full round action. If you are doing a flurry of blows, you have no time in the round to do anything not included in the flurry, so you can't do anything that can't be included in the flurry (like attack with a non-monk wepaon).

EDIT: If you had an ability that allowed you to get extra standard actions (like 3.0 haste) or attack with a weapon as a free or swift action, then you could do them in the same round as a flurry.


glass.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

It does not follow. Your conclusion is based on an unstated premise - "all attacks in a round where the monk performs a flurry of blows must be part of the flurry of blows" - which is not found in the rules and contradicted by clarifications in the official FAQ.

Flurry of Blows is an option you may exercise while taking the full attack action.

Accordingly, Flurry of Blows applies to your entire full attack action.

Similarly, Whirlwind Attack is an option you may exercise while taking the full attack action.

Accordingly, Whirlwind Attack applies to your entire full attack action.

Elsewise, there is a period in between the end of a Flurry of Blows and the end of your full attack action - and, similarly, a period in between the end of a Whirlwind Attack and the end of your full attack action.

This gap does not exist because nowhere in the rules says it exists.

 

[Iku Rex]

Flurry of Blows is an option you may exercise while taking the full attack action.

Accordingly, Flurry of Blows applies to your entire full attack action.

Huh? Your reasoning doesn't make any sense.

The actual rules are that
a) When unarmored, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round.
b) A monk must use a full attack action to strike with a flurry of blows.

Nowhere does it say that only flurry attacks are allowed as part of the full attack action. There are several feats and abilities that can (only or optionally) be used with a full attack action. Two-weapon fighting is a typical example.

Would you agree that the following is true?

"Two-weapon fighting" is an option you may exercise while taking the full attack action.

Accordingly, "two-weapon fighting" applies to your entire full attack action.

Does that prove that you can't combine two-weapon fighting with natural attacks?

How about
Taking "multiple attacks due to a high BAB" is an option you may exercise while taking the full attack action.

Accordingly, "multiple attacks due to a high BAB" applies to your entire full attack action.

Does that prove that you can't combine two-weapon fighting with natural attacks? Does it even make sense?

What if you can use Combat Expertise while taking the full attack action? Does that too prove that you can't use natural atatcks in a round where you use Combat Expertise?

Similarly, Whirlwind Attack is an option you may exercise while taking the full attack action.

Accordingly, Whirlwind Attack applies to your entire full attack action.

With the Whirlwind Attack feat you "give up your regular attacks" (explicitly stated) and you also "forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities" (explicitly stated.