Thrikreen Flurry of Blows?

[Iku Rex]

No, that's not what he implies.

Did you read Patryn of Elvenshae's post? The one I was replying to when you stepped in to "explain"?

However, there is no reason within the rules that the lizardman couldn't change the order around: claw -3, unarmed strike -1, claw -3, bite -3 -- but here, you'd not allow him to make a second unarmed strike, since his flurry must have ended as soon as he took an attack with a non-unarmed strike or monk weapon.

That's nonsensical.

He tried the "flurry of blows applies to your entire full attack action" argument. I showed his reasoning to be inconsistent. He then tried to show that my interpretation would lead to absurdity (above). I showed his reasoning to be inconsistent.

You can make the flurry attacks and secondary natural weapon attacks in any order, but you don't get the natural weapon attacks because you are using flurry of blows and the restriction therein doesn't allow natural weapon attacks. This is the point -- natural weapon attacks are not allowed, period, as part of the flurry or as secondary attacks, or whatever, any time during your turn (i.e. when you are using FoB).

Your claim seems to be that "all attacks in a round where the monk performs a flurry of blows must be part of the flurry of blows". Since I've already pointed out that that's not a rule and you've not offered a single argument or rules quote to the contrary, that can't be what you're trying to say. Please clarify.

 

[ken-ichi]

I think the discussions hinge on whether or not you say that "using" the flurry of blows ability lasts for the whole round or just a part of the round.
If using the flurry ability lasts for a whole round, then a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons as attacking with any other weapons are not allowed.
If using the flurry ability lasts only part of a character's action then a monk may start a flurry, make his flurry attacks, end his flurry, and continue attacking with non monk weapons.
I would look to similar attack options that you can do with full attacks and base my decision around them.
I can look at Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Fighting Defensively, Two Weapon Fighting, and Whirlwind attack. All these options can be done with a full attack and all these options affect your to hit rolls until your next turn. As you still get the AC bonus from Expertise and the damage bonus from PA on your AOO, these options continue to apply thier effects until your next turn. Whirlwind Attack is similar in that it imposes severe limits on what attacks you can make during your full attack action. It is obvious that there are full attack actions that don't permit you to make use of all your available attack types or quantity of allowed attacks.
Whirlwind says: When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.
Flurry says: When using Flurry of Blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons.
Both work in a similar but different manner. Whirlwind limits the number of attacks you can make, while flurry limits the weapons with which you can make any of your attacks.

If you follow the logic of using the flurry of blows lasts only part of your round and allows you to continue attacking with non monk weapons then you would have to allow someone to Whirlwind Attack and then stop whirlwinding and then make any bonus or extra attacks after the whirlwind attack is finished. After all, the limitation ends when the whirlwind ends right? That is what allowing a monk to attack with nonmonk weapons on the same round as performing a flurry is doing, ignoring the limitations imposed by performing the flurry by stating the flurry is over.

So I would have to say that if you wish to perform a flurry, then no natural attacks or non-monk attacks are allowed.
A monk can still gain extra attacks using Two-Weapon fighting while performing a flurry, but only if the second weapon is an unarmed strike or a non-monk weapon.
If you wish to make your natural attacks or make any attacks with a non-monk weapon, then you are not eligible to gain the extra attacks from the Flurry ability.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

If you follow the logic of using the flurry of blows lasts only part of your round and allows you to continue attacking with non monk weapons then you would have to allow someone to Whirlwind Attack and then stop whirlwinding and then make any bonus or extra attacks after the whirlwind attack is finished. After all, the limitation ends when the whirlwind ends right?

Exactly.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Did you read Patryn of Elvenshae's post? The one I was replying to when you stepped in to "explain"?

Snarkiness doesn't help your position. I not only read it, but I'm pretty sure I understand it correctly and I was corroborated by Hyp. If I didn't, I'm sure Patryn would correct me.

He tried the "flurry of blows applies to your entire full attack action" argument. I showed his reasoning to be inconsistent. He then tried to show that my interpretation would lead to absurdity (above). I showed his reasoning to be inconsistent.

I don't think you're characterizing his argument correctly and therefore you didn't show his reasoning to be inconsistent. You just aren't following it.

Your claim seems to be that "all attacks in a round where the monk performs a flurry of blows must be part of the flurry of blows". Since I've already pointed out that that's not a rule and you've not offered a single argument or rules quote to the contrary, that can't be what you're trying to say. Please clarify.

That's not the claim, not literally anyway. The claim is simply that when you flurry during your turn, you are "using flurry of blows." It's really as simple as that. There's no further distinction during your turn where you can be considered not "using flurry of blows." Your interpretation hinges on the idea that during your turn you can be "using flurry of blows" and not "using flurry of blows" and you have zero support on that. To have support, you need to have explicit language that says you are not "using flurry of blows" at some point during your turn. The fact that you can intermingle the attacks (as you've proven) shows incontrovertible proof to the contrary of your own position.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Your interpretation hinges on the idea that during your turn you can be "using flurry of blows" and not "using flurry of blows" and you have zero support on that.

And, moreover, that you can switch between "using" and "not using" as often as you wish and at any time you wish.

That's not the claim, not literally anyway. The claim is simply that when you flurry during your turn, you are "using flurry of blows." It's really as simple as that. There's no further distinction during your turn where you can be considered not "using flurry of blows."

Correct.

 

[Iku Rex]

I would look to similar attack options that you can do with full attacks and base my decision around them. I can look at Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Fighting Defensively, Two Weapon Fighting, and Whirlwind attack. All these options can be done with a full attack and all these options affect your to hit rolls until your next turn. As you still get the AC bonus from Expertise and the damage bonus from PA on your AOO, these options continue to apply therr effects until your next turn.

(The to hit penalty from a flurry also apply until your next turn. As I quoted earlier in the thread "each other attack made that round" [NOT "each other attack made as part of the flurry of blows"] suffers the relevant penalty.)

You are, however right that these examples are a help when making a decision. In order to get more than one attack in a round you "must use the full attack action". You can make secondary natural attacks when using two-weapon fighting. (Not in dispute.) Two-weapon fighting requires that you "use the full attack action". Thus, the fact the a flurry of blows requires the use of a full attack action does not indicate that you can't make secondary natural attacks when using a flurry of blows.

But maybe the phrase "when using X" means that, for some reason, you are considered to be "using X" the entire round?

"Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons" (MM glossary).

If you can't "use natural weapons" without "using natural weapons" in the entire round, then you can't get additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using secondary natural attacks. But that's not the case, is it? Hmm.

Whirlwind says: When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.
Flurry says: When using Flurry of Blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons. Both work in a similar but different manner. Whirlwind limits the number of attacks you can make, while flurry limits the weapons with which you can make any of your attacks.

You make a good point about the quoted part from Whirlwind Attacks. However, that's tagged on after the main text, which makes it clear that you also "give up your regular attacks" (implied: in the round). Furthermore, it is clear from the context that the use of whirlwind attack keeps you from making other attacks in the round. There's no such contextual clarity in flurry of blows. (Remember - I'm not the one insisting that a rule exists. I don't have to prove the negative.)

If the quote on "using" natural weapons above did not convince you, how about the following rule quotes...

"When using the weapon you selected, your threat range is doubled." (Improved Critical)
Would a single attack with a weapon you have the Improved Critical feat for double your threat range for all attacks in the same round?

"When using a weapon with which you are not proficient, you take a -4 penalty on attack rolls." (Several feats)
Would a single attack with a weapon you are not proficient with give you a -4 penalty on all attacks in the round?

"When using a spiked chain, you get a +2 bonus on opposed attack rolls made to disarm an opponent (including the roll to avoid being disarmed if such an attempt fails)." (Spiked chain)
Would a single attack with a spiked chain give you a +2 bonus on all opposed attack rolls made to disarm an opponent in the round?

I think the self evident answer to all these questions is "no". So, the words "when using..." are not secret code for "the following applies in the entire round where you're using..."

 

[Iku Rex]

The claim is simply that when you flurry during your turn, you are "using flurry of blows." It's really as simple as that. There's no further distinction during your turn where you can be considered not "using flurry of blows." Your interpretation hinges on the idea that during your turn you can be "using flurry of blows" and not "using flurry of blows" and you have zero support on that. To have support, you need to have explicit language that says you are not "using flurry of blows" at some point during your turn.

I have language saying that unarmed strikes are considered manufactured weapons. I have language saying that you may make secondary natural attacks with natural weapons in addition to attacks with manufactured weapons without interfering with the primary attack. I have an official clarification from Wizards of the Coast confirming that you may combine secondary natural attacks with a flurry of blows.

You have the stubbornly repeated claim that if you're "using flurry of blows" in a round you must be "using flurry of blows" in the entire round.

I offer numerous examples of rules using the term "when using" that clearly don't apply to all attacks in the round. I offer several combat actions that require the use of a full attack action without preventing secondary natural attacks.

So you insist that I need a special rule stating explicitly that a special rule doesn't apply to flurry of blows. That's an ... interesting ... standard for rule adjudication, to say the least.

The fact that you can intermingle the attacks (as you've proven) shows incontrovertible proof to the contrary of your own position.

Not in this reality.

(And I haven't made any attempt to "prove it", I've simply pointed out the results of that interpretation.)

The only "incontrovertible proof" here is your persistent "if I'm right, you're wrong, and since I'm right you're wrong" argument. But hey - it's "consistent", right? (Circular reasoning always is.)

 

[Iku Rex]

(Re: My interpretation - IR) And, moreover, that you can switch between "using" and "not using" as often as you wish and at any time you wish..

Actually, as I already explained to you, it doesn't matter.

I'll repeat the gist of it to save you the work of reading my earlier posts:

The worst part is, there's no way you can win with this argument. You'll either have to admit that "no rule=no forced order=no problem" or claim that flurry attacks must be made in order, in which case they're no different from regular iterative attacks due to high BAB and there's no problem. (We all agree that regular iterative attacks due to high BAB can be combined with secondary natural attacks.)

What part of this is it you don't understand?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

The part about why that's relevant.

The bonus attacks from FoBs are not "multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough."

Accordingly, the bonus attacks from FoB can be taken at any point in a round - just like those gained from [secondary] natural weapons, the one gained from the Haste spell, and off-hand attacks from the TWF rules.

So, no, I don't see the "no forced order = no problem" argument.

 

[irdeggman]

Okay lets try to keep it civil.

Here is the RAW (from the SRD):

Flurry of Blows (Ex): When unarmored, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a –2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. The resulting modified base attack bonuses are shown in the Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus column on Table: The Monk. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the monk might make before her next action. When a monk reaches 5th level, the penalty lessens to –1, and at 9th level it disappears. A monk must use a full attack action to strike with a flurry of blows.

When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). She may attack with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons interchangeably as desired. When using weapons as part of a flurry of blows, a monk applies her Strength bonus (not Str bonus x 1-1/2 or x1/2) to her damage rolls for all successful attacks, whether she wields a weapon in one or both hands. The monk can’t use any weapon other than a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows.

In the case of the quarterstaff, each end counts as a separate weapon for the purpose of using the flurry of blows ability. Even though the quarterstaff requires two hands to use, a monk may still intersperse unarmed strikes with quarterstaff strikes, assuming that she has enough attacks in her flurry of blows routine to do so.
When a monk reaches 11th level, her flurry of blows ability improves. In addition to the standard single extra attack she gets from flurry of blows, she gets a second extra attack at her full base attack bonus.


Full Attack
If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.

The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.

If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first.

Note the bolded portion (my emphasis).

A monk must use a full-attack action to strike with a a flurry of blows. It doesn't say as part of a full attack action - it says it is a full-attack action.

Also note the emphasis on the -2 penalty applying to all attacks made until the monk's next action - specifically mentioning AoO.

Putting this together it is clear, at least to me.

A flurry of blows can not be combined with other types of attacks and only unarmed attacks and special monk weapons may be used as part of the flurry of blows (unless there is of course a feat or something similar to modify the base ability).