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D&D 5E Tiamat?

That sounds good, but i still say that CR 30 is too low. There are a lot of entities that still need to fit between her and big T and where should they go then?
Seems like they've cut top tier CRs (except Tarrasque) by approx. 5 levels from 4E. So Tiamat was Level 35. She's now CR 30. An ancient Red Dragon was level 30, it's now CR 24 (pretty close).
By this logic, Orcus will be CR 28, Demogorgon 29, G'raazzt CR 27 and so on, and Asmodeus still above 30. So pretty far beyond a Pit Fiend.

Of course, this is just a theory.
 

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That sounds good, but i still say that CR 30 is too low. There are a lot of entities that still need to fit between her and big T and where should they go then?

It's "Asmodeus has equal CR of a pitfiend" all over again (where does that leave the other eight archdevils in various strength weaker than Asmo? Below ordinary putfiends?)

CR 30 is the Max right now. So no it's not too low. Asmodeus would be CR 30 as well given he is stated to have the powers of a god. The stats for this edition seem more based on 1st e then most before it.
 

Yeah. CR 30 as a capstone for those "possibly killable" entities totally works for me. With 10 CR's worth of space from the PC cap of 20, there's plenty of room for "Epic" level play and "Epic" type creatures (CR's 21-30). Yeah. This works for me. No issues here.

A deity isn't a deity because they have a higher CR and bigger HP and bigger AC and bigger...whatever numbers stuff. Deities are deities because, well most obviously, they can impart divine magic on other beings, for starters. THEN, there's the whole "immortality" thing. THEN there's the whole, I have complete power over these areas of the cosmos (skies, seas, animals, corruption, justice, destruction, etc...).

I can easily see a "deity" creature (such as Tiamat, Orcus or Asmodeus) with less than 30CR (though, admittedly, I probably would not go below 25), and still have a ton of spells, unique uber-weapons, and magical powers that make most mortals think, "Yeeeaaah. I'm not telling him he's not a god. Anyone else? Fine. Let's get out of here!"

With room for non-deity [if you want to call them "primordial" or whatever] creatures like the tarrasque and kraken, the leviathan or behemoth if they bring them in as such monsters, which can still be "simple" monsters which even the gods want kept locked away/don't want to have to fight. Can they, sure. But it would be an actual effort without a guaranteed success...ain'no deity gots time fer that!
 


I don't know what Mearls & Co's thinking is, but perhaps CR30 is the max for "prime material plane." Seemingly Tiamat would be more powerful on her home turf; maybe the "overgod" or equivalent of AO in your setting puts a limit on how powerful a being can be in the physical, earthly world - and the Tarrasque is pretty much that limit.
 


I don't see any reason why gods shouldn't have hit points and be killable, especially in a polytheistic world like typical D&D. Diomedes, Achilles and Hercules could all injure gods. Freyr was killed by a fire giant and Thor died from poison.
 

I can easily see a "deity" creature (such as Tiamat, Orcus or Asmodeus) with less than 30CR (though, admittedly, I probably would not go below 25), and still have a ton of spells, unique uber-weapons, and magical powers that make most mortals think, "Yeeeaaah. I'm not telling him he's not a god. Anyone else? Fine. Let's get out of here!"

With room for non-deity [if you want to call them "primordial" or whatever] creatures like the tarrasque and kraken, the leviathan or behemoth if they bring them in as such monsters, which can still be "simple" monsters which even the gods want kept locked away/don't want to have to fight. Can they, sure. But it would be an actual effort without a guaranteed success...ain'no deity gots time fer that!
QFT.

Honestly, treatment of deity stats (and the mechanical differences between gods and other cosmic entities like demon lords, primordials, etc) is such a campaign-specific design choice that I'm not surprised that it's bounced around so much across editions. You had the straight-stats approach of pre-1e and 1e (later modified to include a range of power boosts in greyhawk and then 1e MotP), which some DMs rejected out of hand in response to players treating deities and demigods like a monster manual (which, to be fair, it pretty much was format-wise). "Gods" under that system ranged from the "well, just relatively high-powered monsters" level (demon lords, Tiamat, some weaker demigods) to beings like Zeus or Odin, who were far beyond the power of PCs to defeat unless you really did generate a 60th-level party (possible by the rules but not really contemplated).

2e changed this entirely, both by setting a hard cap of 20th level in the core rules and making gods entirely statless and effectively infinitely powerful barring some sort of Macguffin; one flaw with this system was that it made the difference between "god" and "godlike" effectively infinite. Thus, demogorgon (lesser deity) was not even on the same scale as Graz'zt (a regular monster with hp, confined actions, etc).

3e made the odd decision to once again stat deities, but to use different systems for gods than for epic beings. You thus end up with gods who have stats but don't necessarily fit the CR/level system and have odd ability restrictions. Lots of people (the dicefreaks folks, for instance) played with the system to create deities (and also to up the power of demon lords, arch devils etc to match gods and provide high-epic challenges). In any case, you ended up with a system in which official stats for demon lords etc were at the top end of the challenge scale (eg demogorgon as end boss), but "actual god" stats were way off the chart and really only usable in non epic or even low epic games as avatars.

4e, IMO, had the most consistent system, in part because of the explicit definition of PC levels 21-30 as "world-changing epic/demigod" and the creation of a clear continuum past 30th to full-on deity stats at level 35 or so. Personally, I liked this system because it established some parity for deities, arch fiends, and world-breaking monsters while also allowing for mechanical interactions between gods and demigod-level heroes. You thus had four options in 4e: play stats as written and assume that 30th-level PCs, as the Heracles/Rama/Vidar of their world, can interact with and even threaten deities and planar rulers; cap the game at 20th level and keep divine beings and the like out of PC range barring macguffins; explicitly decide that the divine level spectrum is "stretchier" and move Vecna etc up a few levels (and thus entirely out of even demigod-level PCs' ability to fight); or make your deities statless.

It's too early to see how 5e will handle this but it looks to be somewhat similar to 4e; as CR 30 challenges divine beings like Tiamat are on the power spectrum, but at the top of it and functionally a capstone encounter only if 20th-level PCs benefit from miraculous circumstances. I'm fine with that.
 


Takhisis was far more deadly than Tiamat was in the 1E days. With both of the deities being confirmed as the same being in 5E, I decided to post Takhisis' original 1E stats for comparison sake (Dragonlance Adventures, 1987).

Takhisis

Cleric/Black Robed Wizard (40th level each)
Alignment: Lawful Evil
Movement: 18" / 48"
Armor Class: -10
Hit Points: 999
Hit Dice: 40
# of Attacks: 4
Damage/Attack: 1-1000*/1-1000*/1-1000*/1-1000*
* The damage done by this attack is 1d10 times a number from 1-100, inclusive (Takhisis gets to pick the number!).

That is in addition to 40th level divine and arcane spellcasting abilities.... I have no idea how Raistlin ever managed to kill her given those stats. He is listed as a 20th level Black Robe wizard in a setting with a maximum level cap of 18, and has the following stats.

Raistlin Majere
(20th level human Black Robe Wizard)
STR 10, INT 17, Wis 14, DEX 16, CON 10, CHA 15
Thac0: 9
AL: Chaotic Evil
HP: 44
AC:​ -2
 
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