Tiefling and half-orc should not be in the PHB

[Grazzt]

The reason is that I usually don't play with half-monster races, and I am tired of hearing "but it's in the Player's Handbook..." anytime I form a group to play in my local book store.

If you are the DM, simply say "no". Done. I've done it for years. No gnomes or halflings in my campaign (and haven't been since 1e). Likely never will be either.

 

[Ahnehnois]

There are some races that are indisputably "classic D&D": the four (Human, Dwarf, Elf, Halfling). Realistically, gnomes and half-elves and maybe half-orcs belong in there as well.

As to anything else, we're all about options now, right? Stick the other races somewhere other than at the beginning of the PHB, but make them available. Tieflings have no business alongside humans, elves, and dwarves, but they do need to be in the core rulebooks somewhere. You need warforged for the Eberron crowd. You need goliaths because they're fun. Just put them in an "additional races" section or in the MM. As long as they're there, it's hard to argue anyone's being shorted.

 

[Mallus]

I didn't like it when the half-orc appeared in 3e, and I liked it even less when i saw Tiefling in 4e.

My first character ever was a half-orc. In 1e (AD&D).

<Tevye>Tradition!</Tevye>

(if you don't like a race/class/spell/whatever, turn the page. They'll be other stuff on it)

The reason is that I usually don't play with half-monster races, and I am tired of hearing "but it's in the Player's Handbook..." anytime I form a group to play in my local book store.

Hearing things you don't like is a price you pay for living in a free, democratic, republic.

Nah. Too much symmetry is ugly.

A lot of bilateral symmetry is kinda cute...

 

[Minigiant]

Why? If a player wants to play a Nymph or an Ethergaunt, why shouldn't the rules allow for that possibility? Sure, there'll be social things to deal with, but if the player knows the consequences, they should be able to play whatever they want. All fantasy races are not created equal, and ECL lets players who want to play powerful races do so without completely dominating the game with their extra powers.

Those powerful races should start as level 1 and near powerless. Their powers should grow with levels via feats or special class.

Start as a small fey with only gliding, take a few special classes, themes, and feats to get beter flight, invisiblity, and music powers if you wish. Then full pixie. ECL kept you from starting with certain characters when the DM starts the game at low level. This way you don't have to search for a high level game or wait until your high level PC dies to play powerful races.

 

[Buugipopuu]

But too little symmetry is boring.

Why do we have to be stuck with humans, short humans, scrawny humans, and stout humans?

Can't a brother get a few big dumb lummoxes, horned crafty red people, and a sneaky green people?

I don't think you know what symmetry means.

 

[avin]

Basic/Beginner Set/"Classic" Game: Humans, Elves, Dwarves and Halflings. This is no brainer. Noone's going to be insulted with these offerings.

I bet there's more people playing Dragonborn than Halflings.

Halfling it's just classic, but popular? Not in my experience at least...

Eladrin need to go the way of the dodo.

Kinda like them. High Elves from fey is more interesting than Grey or Wood... but I'd put them all in game, ASAP.

Again, if you are going to put niche races in the Player's Handbook, there is no reason to stop at the arbitrary number of 10. I have seen requests from people to play the most obscure monsters.

I am not arguing for them to be completely taken out of Dungeons & Dragons. Just that they shouldn't be in the Player's Handbook.

Then PHB1 should have Humans and Elves. Maybe Dwarves. The rest is niche. Halflings? Gnomes? Why people think they're more popular today than Dragonborn or Warforged or Tiefling?

I really don't care what races are in the PHB with two conditions:

1. They have to get the basics in there: Human, Dwarf, Elf

And that's it. No gnomes, no halflings... unless they also put Tieflings, Aasimar, Dragonborn and Warforged.

Why? If a player wants to play a Nymph or an Ethergaunt, why shouldn't the rules allow for that possibility?

They should be in, but not with Level Adjustment... we should use something along the lines of 3E's Savage Species...

Hearing things you don't like is a price you pay for living in a free, democratic, republic.

Yes.

Some people love Halflings and think they are "core". I say "burn down hobbits and bring some other race instead".

 

[Buugipopuu]

Those powerful races should start as level 1 and near powerless. Their powers should grow with levels via feats or special class.

Start as a small fey with only gliding, take a few special classes, themes, and feats to get beter flight, invisiblity, and music powers if you wish. Then full pixie. ECL kept you from starting with certain characters when the DM starts the game at low level. This way you don't have to search for a high level game or wait until your high level PC dies to play powerful races.

Okay, so you're just suggesting you make feats and classes for every single monster that ever gets printed? Not viable. With ECL any vaguely playable monster is a PC race just by slapping a single number at the bottom of its entry. Savage Progressions (for monsters with HD) or NPC class levels (for LA) give players the opportunity to play powerful races at first level without needing to create piles and piles of feats to mimic monster abilities.

 

[delericho]

And still I can understand him.
A d&d group usually looks like a freak show. IMHO the number of races available is too high and humans are to rarely found. Or at least usualy demihumans.
It is a lot easier to create a world, where only a few races are encountered regularly.
Some races should be playable, but rarer. One half-orc in the group is interesting... but when every character in the group is a "freak", then it gets strange very soon.

I can sympathise with this view, but this really does need to be a matter for the individual table. If the DM is looking for a "predominantly human" group, and his players want a "Mos Eisley Cantina" group, there's always going to be something of a disconnect, and there's really not too much the rules can do to prevent that.

[MENTION=2167]Khaalis[/MENTION]: 4e does not play like battle tech, sry... those rumors are wrong... "the everything is core" and "players may dictate, what the DM has to do" mentality is what really hurt the game.

This I agree with. First in "Complete Arcane", then on Wizards.com and then in the 4e core rulebooks, I started seeing some very questionable statements to the effect that if a player wanted to play a 'freakshow' character, the DM should always work with the player to make the character work. This advice invariably failed to address the four other players at the table and their preferences, nor the many hours of work the DM had potentially put into his setting.

Simply put: some concepts just don't fit some campaigns.

I'm not advocating a return to some sort of "DM is God" false-utopia. Yes, groups absolutely should work together to create a satisfying game for all. And, yes, the "say yes" advice is pretty good as a general rule of thumb.

But late 3e, and all of 4e, did seem to swing too far towards player empowerment, at the expense of everything else.

 

[Buugipopuu]

They should be in, but not with Level Adjustment... we should use something along the lines of 3E's Savage Species...

But Savage Species did use level adjustment. There were dead levels in savage progressions to offset them.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

@ delericho: I encourage you to read my post further down too...
I strongly recommend presenting all races besides human as an option in the first PHB. Truth to be told, you could even add human to the option and as a base, races don´t modify anything and is only dressing. (You may play a raceless cleric... which could look like an elf, a human or any default race.) And then as an option, all races could be presented.
I just thought, you would have a good consensus, if human was the default race... but maybe even that could be too much...