Tiefling and half-orc should not be in the PHB

[delericho]

I bet there's more people playing Dragonborn than Halflings.

Halfling it's just classic, but popular? Not in my experience at least...

<snip lots>

Some people love Halflings and think they are "core". I say "burn down hobbits and bring some other race instead".

I don't know about the relative popularity of Halflings vs Dragonborn, but there is one almost overwhelming reason Halflings should be in the core. It's coming to a cinema near you in December.

Seriously, WotC should be doing everything they can to latch onto any surge in fantasy that results from the Hobbit movie. And part of that means making it as easy as possible to play the heroes from that film (and, indeed, the LotR films, not to mention the books).

Dropping any of the 'big 4' races would be a huge mistake.

Okay, so you're just suggesting you make feats and classes for every single monster that ever gets printed? Not viable. With ECL any vaguely playable monster is a PC race just by slapping a single number at the bottom of its entry. Savage Progressions (for monsters with HD) or NPC class levels (for LA) give players the opportunity to play powerful races at first level without needing to create piles and piles of feats to mimic monster abilities.

In theory, I would agree with that, but the LA mechanics in 3e just didn't work right, and I strongly suspect that was because they were fundamentally flawed, not just that they needed tweaked.

The best way to handle "monsters as PCs" for normally high-powered monsters is to provide a "Savage Species" type supplement, providing decent progressions (and specialised feats, powers, etc) for as many creatures as will fit.

 

[delericho]

@ delericho: I encourage you to read my post further down too...
I strongly recommend presenting all races besides human as an option in the first PHB.

Sorry, I missed that.

Truth to be told, you could even add human to the option and as a base, races don´t modify anything and is only dressing. (You may play a raceless cleric... which could look like an elf, a human or any default race.) And then as an option, all races could be presented.

Stunning idea. Truly, that is a really good thought.

 

[RangerWickett]

Can we compromise?

PHB Races
A write-up for Humans that gives brief examples of classic fantasy cultural niches humans fill. Includes the various racial perks humans get (probably extra feat and skill stuff). Have a sidebar that mentions human off-shoots, like half-elves, half-orcs, goliaths, and kalashtar.

Similar write-ups for dwarves, elves, and halflings. The dwarf section mentions duergar, derro, and muls. The elf section includes a side-bar mentioning elven sub-races, drow, and eladrin. The halfling section mentions hobbits, kender, and gnomes as other common short races (but emphasizes that only the bigger races get them confused).

Those are the only races with full write-ups. Then you have, like, a 4-page section of other races, listing only a one-sentence description, plus stats. Say at the start that many of these races are viewed as monsters (and so you can find more details in the Monster Manual), and that they'll receive fuller treatment in later books, including things like feats and prestige classes/paragon paths.

Then the exotic list can have:

aasimar
bugbear
changeling
deva
dragonborn
drow
duergar
eladrin
gnome
goblin
goliath
half-elf
half-orc
hobgoblin
kalashtar
kender
minotaur
orc
revenant
shifter
tiefling
treefolk
warforged

Sort of like the section at the end of the 4e Monster Manual.

(I think we can safely hold off on genasi, githyanki, githzerai, hamadryad, janni, pixie, satyr, shade, shardmind, vryloka, and wilden.)

 

[Shemeska]

(I think we can safely hold off on genasi,

I'll trade genasi (2e/3e genasi, not the tron guys from 4e) for half of the critters from your exotics list.

 

[Buugipopuu]

In theory, I would agree with that, but the LA mechanics in 3e just didn't work right, and I strongly suspect that was because they were fundamentally flawed, not just that they needed tweaked.

LA is fine, WotC just made most things too high. And they didn't take into account LA being absorbed by high racial HD most of the time.

The best way to handle "monsters as PCs" for normally high-powered monsters is to provide a "Savage Species" type supplement, providing decent progressions (and specialised feats, powers, etc) for as many creatures as will fit.

That still uses LA though, you're just spreading it out.

 

[Minigiant]

Okay, so you're just suggesting you make feats and classes for every single monster that ever gets printed? Not viable. With ECL any vaguely playable monster is a PC race just by slapping a single number at the bottom of its entry. Savage Progressions (for monsters with HD) or NPC class levels (for LA) give players the opportunity to play powerful races at first level without needing to create piles and piles of feats to mimic monster abilities.

I could live with a Savage Species style progress.

My main two views on race are

1) Races should be special or they shouldn't waste pages on it. If elves are just scrawny humans then the two races are no different than the Empire vs the Revolutionists. If being a different race does little to your character, then they shouldn't have any mechanical differences. If I want to be an elf, I'll just roll a High Dex Low Con human.

2) Any humanoid the DM throws at me, I should be able to throw at him or her. If you make the orcs attack the village, then I should be able to play an orc from another tribe. Or an exile from your orc tribe. Or an orc travelled from a far away civilized orc kingdom.

 

[BryonD]

I bet there's more people playing Dragonborn than Halflings.

I'll take that bet.


I mean, you may be right if you only count 4E players. But you didn't say that. And there doesn't seem to be any reason to only count 4E players.

 

[delericho]

LA is fine, WotC just made most things too high. And they didn't take into account LA being absorbed by high racial HD most of the time.

I agree that the LAs were almost invariably too high, and I agree that there was a problem with high racial hit dice not absorbing LA.

However, there were significant additional problems with LA that weren't so simply resolved. Basically, the moment you started playing against type, your character was nerfed unless you happened to cherry-pick exactly the right powers. Compare the disparities between an Ogre Wizard 5 and an Orge Barbarian 5, versus those for a Half-orc of the same ECL in those classes.

The system absolutely could be made to work, and it was certainly better than just nothing (at least, assuming you allowed monster PCs at all). But it was best operated by having the DM and the player get together and thrash out an individual solution for the given PC. I'm not sure that's something that can be systemised at all.

That still uses LA though, you're just spreading it out.

I'm aware of that. I'm not advocating that "Savage Species" is the solution; I'm advocating that a book like "Savage Species" is the solution.

 

[delericho]

1) Races should be special or they shouldn't waste pages on it.

I agree, but I don't think "having stat adjustments" makes for a race being special. I would much prefer this to be handled by instead providing a load of powers/feats/items/whatever that are unique to the race. So, only dwarves get to take the "Son of the Mountain" power, only Halflings can take the "Refined Palate" feat, and only Elves can use a "Cloak of Elvenkind". Or whatever.

The rest of the specialness is really setting-specific stuff anyway, and I'm always wary about how much of that should be in the generic core rulebooks.

2) Any humanoid the DM throws at me, I should be able to throw at him or her.

Disagree absolutely. My goblins aren't some other culture with their own distinct mores and traditions, alien but fundamentally knowable. My goblins are monsters - warped few spirits that fall through cracks in the Feywild into dark places of the world. They don't want your treasure, they can't be reasoned with; they want nothing other than to eat you. So, I'm sorry, but if you're playing in my game, you don't get to play a goblin, period.

I don't have a problem with monster PCs in general, but this has to remain an option under the DM's discretion. IMO, of course.

 

[Buugipopuu]

However, there were significant additional problems with LA that weren't so simply resolved. Basically, the moment you started playing against type, your character was nerfed unless you happened to cherry-pick exactly the right powers. Compare the disparities between an Ogre Wizard 5 and an Orge Barbarian 5, versus those for a Half-orc of the same ECL in those classes.

Of course Ogres make worse Wizards than Half-Orcs. They have a bigger Int penalty. But really that's not a problem with LA, but a problem with primary casters being unable to multiclass effectively. Fighter 6/Barbarian 5 synergises much better than Fighter 6/Wizard 5.