Tiger companion - loads of clawy goodness?

[Mahali]

hmm... trying to think of how to affect the tiger with shield... spell storing devices wouldnt work either unless the tiger can speak... got awaken?

A potion of shield that the tiger drinks.
Awaken would take a while. It'd have to be awakend then gain a level and take Wizard/Sorc, or something with Use Magic Device (and roll high). Personally I'd rather have the tiger take Rogue and get sneak attack.

 

[Pielorinho]

If the other combatants are aware of your presence, you are in the fight, no matter what.

Cite please?

Daniel

 

[kreynolds]

Cite please?

Daniel

Check out the DMG, Combat, pages 60 - 63. Basically, if the cat is aware of the combatants, and the combatants are aware of the cat, they should roll initiative. However, if the combatants are NOT aware of the cat, and combat has already begun, your feline can enter the fray at any point with a pounce, so long as they are not aware of the cat beforehand.

Check out the subsections One Side Aware First and Both Sides Aware at the Same Time. That should help.

 

[Pielorinho]

Thanks! In looking at these sections, I'm still a little confused. Here's an example of the "both sides aware" option:

A party of adventurers comes along a dungeon corridor and hears the laughter of orcs beyond the door ahead. Meanwhile, the orc lookout sees the adventurers through a peephole in the door and warns his comrades....[PCs and orcs each do something]...The DM records the passage of 1 round...[the PCs and orcs each do something else]...The DM tracs another round. The fighter opens the door, and the DM calls for an initiative check from all. The third round begins, this time with the order of actions being important (and dictated by initiative checks).

According to how I think you're reading this, if the orcs have a trained tiger in the room, the tiger won't get to pounce, since two rounds have already passed. If the PCs had burst into the room, however, and surprised the orcs & their tiger, then the tiger could have pounced.

Or maybe you're saying that the tiger can pounce, since the PCs aren't aware of it -- but if the PCs had heard the tiger growl, then it would be unable to pounce.

Am I understanding what you're saying? Basically, I'm unclear on how someone's awareness of a tiger can prevent it from pouncing. Consider that a tiger can pounce on the first round of combat if its enemies have surprised it -- in this case, the enemies are clearly aware of the critter, but they're unable to prevent it from pouncing.

Finally, one more pounce question. Am I right in thinking that pounce won't combine with charge or with anything besides a single move?

Daniel

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

You might consider it a little like sneak attack against flat-footed (I do only speak of flat-footed. Not flanking!) opponents. Once the targes are able to react towards you, you can`t use these special abilities.
If you would have cast invisibilty on the tiger, it should be possible for him to pounce. Even if he watched the fight over several rounds, minutes or any other time unit.
If you had hidden him somewhere, were no one was able to see him, the same should apply. If you said him to stay, until the opponents are near enough, and the opponents were able to see (or "sense"?) him, they can make some defensive actions (which are totally passive )...
Probably, Pounce would also work against helpless opponents - but who cares? If you`re helpless and being attacked by a big cat, you don`t expect to survice, do you?

(Hmm. Did I fail my Saving Throw against Mass Common Sense?)

 

[DevoutlyApathetic]

How the heck is pounce supposed to work anyways? Does it work in the surprise round? It is annoyingly undefined...if it doesn't work in the surprise round that it starts getting really silly....

 

[Pielorinho]

You might consider it a little like sneak attack against flat-footed (I do only speak of flat-footed. Not flanking!) opponents. Once the targes are able to react towards you, you can`t use these special abilities.

I thought about that, and without looking at the rules for pounce, it makes sense. I may suggest to my DM that he houserule pounce to work in this fashion.

However, it clearly doesn't work this way in the rules. Since pounce works in "the first round of combat," it's pretty clear that the following scenario allows a pounce:
1) The tiger and the archer see each other simultaneously.
2) The archer wins initiative and shoots the tiger.
3) The tiger moves toward the archer and pounces.

In this scenario, the archer isn't flatfooted.

However, the more I think about it, the nastier I think pounce was in Friday night's session, the way we were playing it (i.e., that the tiger's first round of combat was dependant on when it entered combat). So I may suggest the following rule:
-A creature with pounce may ready a pounce against any creature that isn't aware of the pouncer (e.g., a group of adventurers plans to open a door to attack the ogres beyond; the ogre ranger commands his tiger companion to pounce on the first person to come through the door).
-A creature with pounce may pounce on any flatfooted opponent.

Daniel

 

[hong]

However, the more I think about it, the nastier I think pounce was in Friday night's session, the way we were playing it (i.e., that the tiger's first round of combat was dependant on when it entered combat). So I may suggest the following rule:
-A creature with pounce may ready a pounce against any creature that isn't aware of the pouncer (e.g., a group of adventurers plans to open a door to attack the ogres beyond; the ogre ranger commands his tiger companion to pounce on the first person to come through the door).
-A creature with pounce may pounce on any flatfooted opponent.

I don't think the requirement to use a ready action is really necessary. Otherwise it seems like a good rule.

 

[kreynolds]

I thought about that, and without looking at the rules for pounce, it makes sense. I may suggest to my DM that he houserule pounce to work in this fashion.

However, it clearly doesn't work this way in the rules. Since pounce works in "the first round of combat," it's pretty clear that the following scenario allows a pounce:
1) The tiger and the archer see each other simultaneously.
2) The archer wins initiative and shoots the tiger.
3) The tiger moves toward the archer and pounces.

In this scenario, the archer isn't flatfooted.

However, the more I think about it, the nastier I think pounce was in Friday night's session, the way we were playing it (i.e., that the tiger's first round of combat was dependant on when it entered combat). So I may suggest the following rule:
-A creature with pounce may ready a pounce against any creature that isn't aware of the pouncer (e.g., a group of adventurers plans to open a door to attack the ogres beyond; the ogre ranger commands his tiger companion to pounce on the first person to come through the door).
-A creature with pounce may pounce on any flatfooted opponent.

Daniel

Pounce is really simple. If you're cat has rolled initiative, it can only pounce it's first round. The very instant it rolls initiative, that's it. It seems to me that the problem you are having is determining when exactly the round starts and when exactly your tiger is supposed to roll initiative. If your DM understands and has a firm grasp on the concept of the first round of combat, just leave it up to him. There really isn't any reason to change how pounce works. Readying an action to pounce is pointless as well, because by the rules, the tiger must pounce during the first round. Is there something particular about how pounce works that you're not really fond of? If there is, what part?

 

[Orco42]

Tiger companion - loads of clawy goodness?

Hehe. A druid in my game just got a Legendary Tiger and awakened it.

The druid was tough enough with out the tiger, now the tiger can take any 2 fighters in the party.