Time of Vengeance [closed]

[hero4hire]

Sorry for Hijacking the thread, but I've something that's come up in a RL game and I don't know where to turn for the answer, so I figured I'd ask here. I'm not so much interested in opinions(We have our fair share on this end) as I am in whether anybody knows if there's an Actual rule that covers it one way or another. While I'm fine with house-rules, I prefer to play things RAW until I have seen a rule in play and decided for myself to change it.

So here's the question:

The attack/defense trade-offs specifically say under attack-Save DC that things that DO NOT require attack rolls don't benefit from an attack/save trade-off, using the normal PL caps. It does NOT, however, say anything about powers that use an attack roll but do not have a Save DC...
If a character had a -2 atk/+2 DC trade-off, would they be allowed to add accurate (+2 attack) to a power that required an attack roll but did not have a save? (To bring the powers attack bonus up to their 'normal' PL cap)
Alternately, if a character had a +2 atk/-2 DC trade-off, would they use their enhanced attack roll on the power, or would they have to use the normal PL cap?

which powers require an attack but not a save?

 

[Thanee]

Unreliable is a seriously harsh flaw. Crippling almost!
What I am saying is I dont think I like the applying flaws to array as a whole interpretation.

In UP it says, that it's meant to apply to switching between an array's configurations (IIRC, no book here).

I am not going to treat arrays as high ranked powers proced at 2pp/rank. Just not comfortable with it. I am going to talk to Steve about it for future rulings.

Sure. The Array as a 2pp/rank power certainly is kinda weird. I wouldn't have made it like a power at all and just gave it a maximum PP to be active in one configuration, which equals its cost and no rank or anything else.

I have been toying with your build and rebuilt Fusion from scratch to try to get similiar numbers but with a little different approach.

Basically she has her car form and her hybrid form.

The hybrid form can grow, combine that with Morph to look more like a Transformer.

Since temporary size changes arent subject to PL caps, no need for extra math.

I see. Thanks for all the work!

I took out the innate/linked stuff. Linked is implied, as it is a Container. Innate didn't seem to be needed for the concept of an altered human.

I can tell you why I used Linked and Innate, and why I find those important for the concept... Because otherwise, Fusion could activate and deactivate the powers seperately, but most of them together are meant to represent the form as a whole (i.e. the car needs Morph/Growth/Super Strength/etc. in order to actually be the car). For the same reason, you shouldn't be able to negate one without the other. Hence... all Linked and all Innate. In order to negate her powers you need to negate Alternate Form (which makes sense, since that is her power, the other 'powers' inside the container together are the form's benefits (and partially drawbacks)).

Added Features to represent car features that dont have great game impact

Not sure what Features is? An Effect?

Added a Strike with a Trail effect that takes a full action to represent the pain of running people over.

If the Strike takes a Full Action, you cannot move during the action... that makes no sense with a car, since the only way to do damage is to move (into something), or am I missing something there?

Had to shave some things here and there but I think it works!
Let me know what you think and if it is okay we can start playing (Yay!!)

Looks good on first glance, will have to rewrite it into a (for me) better readable form, though, to see what's missing. Not familiar enough with M&M to see that on first glance.

Will do that, when I get home from work.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Sorry for Hijacking the thread, but I've something that's come up in a RL game and I don't know where to turn for the answer, so I figured I'd ask here. I'm not so much interested in opinions(We have our fair share on this end) as I am in whether anybody knows if there's an Actual rule that covers it one way or another.

You could also ask Steve Kenson himself... CLICK

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

I am going to talk to Steve about it for future rulings.

Saw your question over there on the ATT, when I looked up the URL for Jemal.

You should probably include (-> edit into the post), that the Flaw in question is Unreliable and is meant to make switching between forms, well, unreliable, otherwise it's not very clear what the flaw is meant to apply to, which makes it hard to give an answer to the actual question.

But as I understand it, Alternate Power is not a Power Feat of Alternate Form, but of the Array, hence switching between the forms should be a function of the Array and not of Alternate Form (i.e. as I did it above). But I'm curious about Steve's answer as well.

Bye
Thanee

 

[hero4hire]

In UP it says, that it's meant to apply to switching between an array's configurations (IIRC, no book here).

<snip>

Sure. The Array as a 2pp/rank power certainly is kinda weird. I wouldn't have made it like a power at all and just gave it a maximum PP to be active in one configuration, which equals its cost and no rank or anything else.

You are probably right on how it says it works..I am just not terribly comfortable with it. Not just for your build, but for any builds in my games.







I

can tell you why I used Linked and Innate, and why I find those important for the concept... Because otherwise, Fusion could activate and deactivate the powers seperately, but most of them together are meant to represent the form as a whole (i.e. the car needs Morph/Growth/Super Strength/etc. in order to actually be the car). For the same reason, you shouldn't be able to negate one without the other. Hence... all Linked and all Innate. In order to negate her powers you need to negate Alternate Form (which makes sense, since that is her power, the other 'powers' inside the container together are the form's benefits (and partially drawbacks)).

Due to your descriptors I will rule that it is all implied. If someone wanted to negate your powers they will be going against your Alt Form Rank.

This saves on clutter and opens up some neat options like using Morph to alter your paint job.

So we will Keep it simple, your alt form looks like a Car. You have all the appropriate powers within the alt form power, so no need to go Hero System to explain it. The descriptors are good enough for me.

Not sure what Features is? An Effect?

Page 50 Ultimate Power. This is meant for some minor car options (a trunk? a glovebox? headlights? bucket seats?) 2 ranks should be enough to cover that.

If the Strike takes a Full Action, you cannot move during the action... that makes no sense with a car, since the only way to do damage is to move (into something), or am I missing something there?

Trail: The effect fills a line up to 10 feet per rank behind you as
you move, affecting anyone in the area you’ve moved through.
Note the action required to use the effect does not change
unless you also apply an Action modifier. So as a default, you
have to take a standard action each round to use a Trail Area
attack effect.

That says to me to normally use Trail you only need a standard action.
This is how I will rule it for now. I dont see it as too Game breaking.
At rank 10 I would only allow up to 100 feet of movement or your movement mode whichever is less.

Looks good on first glance, will have to rewrite it into a (for me) better readable form, though, to see what's missing. Not familiar enough with M&M to see that on first glance.

Will do that, when I get home from work.

Yeah the format is a little funky (from a spreadsheet) but it saves me typing.

 

[hero4hire]

Saw your question over there on the ATT, when I looked up the URL for Jemal.

You should probably include (-> edit into the post), that the Flaw in question is Unreliable and is meant to make switching between forms, well, unreliable, otherwise it's not very clear what the flaw is meant to apply to, which makes it hard to give an answer to the actual question.

But as I understand it, Alternate Power is not a Power Feat of Alternate Form, but of the Array, hence switching between the forms should be a function of the Array and not of Alternate Form (i.e. as I did it above). But I'm curious about Steve's answer as well.

Bye
Thanee

I am interested in the answer for any flaw not just unreliable. If I were to allow this it would have some ramifications in my FTF games.

If your interpretation is correct no one should ever simply just buy a power with a cost higher then 2pp per rank with alternate powers. Instead they should call it an array and have much higher ranks. Then it would be more effective for using the countering rules and more cost effective when getting flaws.

 

[Thanee]

I am interested in the answer for any flaw not just unreliable. If I were to allow this it would have some ramifications in my FTF games.

Certainly. Was mostly worried, that you get an answer like... 'that depends on the specific flaw'. Because it does (as I understand it, anyways ).

But knowing Steve, he would probably just give an example for both.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Due to your descriptors I will rule that it is all implied. ... The descriptors are good enough for me.

Ok.

...so no need to go Hero System to explain it.

LOL

Sorry, I just like mechanics that match the flavor even in extreme cases (like the Negation stuff, which probably isn't all too common).

Page 50 Ultimate Power. This is meant for some minor car options (a trunk? a glovebox? headlights? bucket seats?) 2 ranks should be enough to cover that.

I see, so Features is small, useful abilities, that are not already covered by the form itself (i.e. the lights, which actually do something, that would otherwise be a power or a piece of equipment).

Trail: ...
That says to me to normally use Trail you only need a standard action.
This is how I will rule it for now. I dont see it as too Game breaking.

Ah, I see, so it's basically an area move-through attack.

Thanks for the explanations!

Bye
Thanee

 

[hero4hire]

Sorry for Hijacking the thread, but I've something that's come up in a RL game and I don't know where to turn for the answer, so I figured I'd ask here. I'm not so much interested in opinions(We have our fair share on this end) as I am in whether anybody knows if there's an Actual rule that covers it one way or another. While I'm fine with house-rules, I prefer to play things RAW until I have seen a rule in play and decided for myself to change it.

So here's the question:

The attack/defense trade-offs specifically say under attack-Save DC that things that DO NOT require attack rolls don't benefit from an attack/save trade-off, using the normal PL caps. It does NOT, however, say anything about powers that use an attack roll but do not have a Save DC...
If a character had a -2 atk/+2 DC trade-off, would they be allowed to add accurate (+2 attack) to a power that required an attack roll but did not have a save? (To bring the powers attack bonus up to their 'normal' PL cap)
Alternately, if a character had a +2 atk/-2 DC trade-off, would they use their enhanced attack roll on the power, or would they have to use the normal PL cap?

ATK/DC Tradeoffs are on a "per attack form" basis and not blanket tradeoffs.

If a character had a -2 atk/+2 DC trade-off it does not effect EVERY attack form he has just that particualr one he traded.

So one PL 10 character can have a +5 atk DC +15 punch and a +15 atk +5 damage blast.

To trade off you need two things to trade off. With attacks it would be atk roll/DC.

Perception powers do not have an atk roll to trade off, hence they are always limited to PL.
Likewise if an attack has no save that means it HAS NO DC to trade and the attack roll is limited to PL.

 

[Thanee]

Would 'Features' also include something like defense against Trip attacks and stuff like that? That's why I had given the car form the Immovable ranks, because it should be fairly resistent to such attempts (in a similar HERO SYSTEM-esque approach ).

Bye
Thanee