times they are a changen....

[barsoomcore]

It's interesting. There's actually TWO arguments going on in this thread.

...

Wait, I just realised I missed two whole pages of this thread. Whoops. Better think of something ELSE to talk about.

Ehm, what about the OTHER argument -- one that kind of got dropped in all the "He said this!" "He said that!" fun? The one that says:

"High-level enemies of the PCs will Scry, Teleport, Meteor Swarm them into oblivion before they have anything like the power to resist."

What's our collective response to that general case? Because, fundamentally, it looks like a big problem to me.

It did, anyway, which is why I took magic out of my campaign wholesale. Well, kinda. That's what I told the PCs, anyway.

But my campaign world features almost no low-or-mid-level spellcasters. Anyone who shows up with a whiff of power pretty much gets beaten down by one or more of the high-level spellcasters... UNLESS they can talk themselves into being useful to one of them and acquiring some protection...

Well, anyway, this seems like a valid concern about realism and playability. Thoughts, anyone

(EDIT: changed everything after I realised I'd missed half the thread)

 

[LokiDR]

Campaigns

High level characters in a world full of low level characters is an interesting question. Why don't high level baddes just nuke people that get in their way. I say it is the same reason that the USSR didn't just nuke countries in their way. Super power villians are spending more of their time worrying about super power heros. If you annoy them, they hire some mercenaries (a threat on your level) just the USSR and US funding guerrials in the countries they fought over. Pakastan pisses off the USSR? Pakastan suddenly has coup to deal with, not the whole red army. If the high level character really could kill off any one they wanted, there would never be adventures. Either make it not possible in the game (barsoomcore, Forrester) or they have other balancing factors. If a game world doesn't seem to make sense, do world politics that actually happened?

 

[Forrester]

You're a pyromaniac in a field full of strawmen, Barsoom!

For one, Monte and Piratecat and others are not saying "You can run a murder mystery in a high-level campaign", but "You can run an adventure which starts with a murder mystery in a high-level campaign . . . okay, the actual "mystery" about the murder will disappear in approximately 4.2 seconds, but that doesn't mean that you can't make the rest of the adventure fun!"

Second, I'm the DM. All the problems challenging the players are on my terms. Duh!

Of course, it's really obvious what the real issue is here. I'll spell it out, using small words, for y'all when I get home and have a little more free time .

EDIT: D'oh! You completely changed your post! Well, I'm leaving mine as is, because I get to use that "pyromaniac in field full of strawmen" comment, not to mention poke fun at Monte and Piratecat again!

The issue of why high-level opposition doesn't completely and totally wipe out most parties who have to face it, given how key the element of surprise + Save or Die is in such combats, is a good one. Someone pointed out that adventures like the Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil would "never really happen" in a fantasy world with the rules set as they are, as the high-level opposition would, if they had access to Commune and Scry and Teleport, move in a team to blow the hell out of the party as soon as they realized they're going to be a pain in the ass.

I think that suspension of disbelief is the usual answer. That's fine for some campaigns, of course. You know . . . the "loser" campaigns . (Hey! There was a smiley! THERE WAS A SMILEY!)

But what do the rest of us do?

 

[TiQuinn]

"High-level enemies of the PCs will Scry, Teleport, Meteor Swarm them into oblivion before they have anything like the power to resist."

What's our collective response to that general case? Because, fundamentally, it looks like a big problem to me.

My response to that is probably going to be very unsatisfying, but to me, it's the best one. I just wouldn't do that. Sure, a high level spellcaster COULD do that, and if I were to really play out a spellcaster with a genius intellect, this would probably be a typical course of action (BTW, I've seen people work hastes, eyebites, maximized fireballs and time stops into this example just to make it hurt even more). But unless I know the players will have a way to deal with it, I wouldn't do it.

Why?

Because where's the fun in that?

I'm G O D. I can say a 400d6 Lightning Bolt gets handed down from the sky onto the PCs and it would happen. I can kill their characters without a single hesitation. But again, how is that fun? I think the fun in the game comes by presenting a difficult situation to the PCs, get them to fear for their lives, knowing that in the end they'll probably figure a way out of it. That's why I DM, cause I love to create those situations. Honestly, PC killing is boring.

 

[barsoomcore]

Re: Campaigns

Why don't high level baddes just nuke people that get in their way. I say it is the same reason that the USSR didn't just nuke countries in their way.

Well, there's some value in this sort of thinking but to my mind it ignores some fundamental differences between magic and political power. I did a lot of thinking about this when setting up my campaign and especially in contemplating the effects of high-powered spellcasters on world events.

Thing is, any nuclear (or otherwise political) superpower is dependent on certain social/economic realities. That is, their power only exists within a socioeconomic context. Take the context away (Viva La Revolution!) and the power disappears.

Magic's not like that. A spell-casting wizard with meteor swarm is NOT like the USSR. For the USSR to, say, invade Pakistan, is a huge commitment of time and resources. It will take years to organize their forces (which they will have to draw from other fronts, leaving them vulnerable there), and world history proves over and over that NO superpower is ever assured of victory, no matter what the odds look like. It's expensive, risky and hard to recover from.

But if super-wizard teleports in and Meteor Swarms a fifth-level party, what has that cost him? A couple of spell slots? Big deal. Why on earth would he go to all the trouble of finding and hiring mercenaries to take care of this problem when he can do it himself in literally minutes? At no cost or risk to himself? He's not dependent on any sort of socioeconomic context -- he doesn't care if the peasant revolt or East Germany kicks off the traces. None of that affects HIS power at all.

This is big difference between magical power and political power -- separation from any context that might limit the power. That has drastic consequences that I've never seen a D&D campaign (aside from mine, of course) address.

If the high level character really could kill off any one they wanted, there would never be adventures.

Well, not necessarily. But you'd sure want to be careful. On Barsoom, only the nastiest, cunningiest, most ruthless, paranoid and thorough freaks ever survive to become high level. This ensures that they're a bunch of constantly-terrified cowards who never reveal themselves if they can possibly avoid it. That does make it easier for an adventuring party to get along to some degree -- and if they fight off one attack it tends to send their enemy scampering for the hills, afraid to risk another attempt.

It gets pretty funny when 40th-level demigods are afraid of 5th-level Rogues. Heh.

EDIT: formatting

 

[TiQuinn]

The issue of why high-level opposition doesn't completely and totally wipe out most parties who have to face it, given how key the element of surprise + Save or Die is in such combats, is a good one. Someone pointed out that adventures like the Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil would "never really happen" in a fantasy world with the rules set as they are, as the high-level opposition would, if they had access to Commune and Scry and Teleport, move in a team to blow the hell out of the party as soon as they realized they're going to be a pain in the ass.

I think that suspension of disbelief is the usual answer. That's fine for some campaigns, of course. You know . . . the "loser" campaigns . (Hey! There was a smiley! THERE WAS A SMILEY!)

But what do the rest of us do?

What? You want something within the rules that says the party has access to some spell or ability that's going to counter and block the spells of casters about 5 to 10 levels higher than them?
Sheesh!

 

[barsoomcore]

EDIT: D'oh! You completely changed your post! Well, I'm leaving mine as is, because I get to use that "pyromaniac in field full of strawmen" comment, not to mention poke fun at Monte and Piratecat again!

Heh. Knew I'd catch somebody with that one. Glad it was you. Seems appropriate, somehow.

 

[TiQuinn]

Ehm, what about the OTHER argument -- one that kind of got dropped in all the "He said this!" "He said that!" fun? The one that says:

"High-level enemies of the PCs will Scry, Teleport, Meteor Swarm them into oblivion before they have anything like the power to resist."

I got it! I got it!

Give the whole party rings of counterspells with meteor swarm in it.

Problem solved!

 

[Forrester]

What? You want something within the rules that says the party has access to some spell or ability that's going to counter and block the spells of casters about 5 to 10 levels higher than them?
Sheesh!

I don't need anything in the rules to protect such parties . . . if I change the rules to ban Scry/Teleport and/or change Commune .

Which I did! Actually, I haven't made any official changes to Commune yet, bcs the party can't cast it, and they don't even have a cleric right now, so it's not something I feel I have to consult with them about.

But they know that I've banned Scry/Teleport. They are very, very happy, because they know that if I didn't, there'd be no logical reason for their party to still be alive.

My players like logic. Logic is their friend.

And with this change . . . maybe that party storming the Temple would actually have a realistic chance.

 

[barsoomcore]

I got it! I got it!

Give the whole party rings of counterspells with meteor swarm in it.

Problem solved!

Hey, TiQuinn, come here. No, really. Come here. No, no, over here next to me.

*smack!*

Durn cheek.