Tired of d20 yet?

[The_Universe]

Amazingly, I'm *still* not tired of D20. I am tired of people asking if I'm tired of D20, though.

 

[francisca]

Not tired of D20. I got tired of running D&D 3.5, and went back to running 1e. If I had the time and the group to run with, I'd be happy to run something else. I'd certainly be happy to run something non-d20, but because I'd just like to try something else, not because d20 has grown tiresome.

 

[Ranger REG]

Amazingly, I'm *still* not tired of D20. I am tired of people asking if I'm tired of D20, though.

With all due respect, just because a question thread is there, doesn't mean you have to answer.

 

[woodelf]

I feel ya, bro. Some people, however, like me like to focus more on the story and the action than the rules. Nothing deflates the sense of urgency in a battle or other game scenario than looking up some rule in some book. I don't like crunching the numbers. I just want to find out what the heck that noise was behind the door before I sneak in to steal the king's chalice. I'll happily roll a Listen check, but don't ask me to remember a new rule for it.

Alternate [n.b.: not necessarily "better"] solution: play a system that is lite enough that you don't have to scramble to look up a rule. Ever. 'Cause they're not there.

What I like about d20 is that you always have some basic idea of what the appropriate roll would be fairly resolve some situation that calls for random chance influenced by a PC's skills and abilities.

Huh. My only real frustration with Arcana Unearthed (which fixes many of my problems with D&D3E) is precisely that it seems like about every 3rd roll i call for doesn't have any relevant skill or class ability to roll against. I hate having lots of stuff turn into attribute rolls, because they don't scale with level, and all those levels/points the players have spent to get good at stuff are irrelevant. Alternately, as someone else mentioned, Diplomacy ends up being a real kitchen-sink skill.

I haven't personally made the leap to another d20 setting, but it strikes me that the transition will be simpler given that I already understand the mechanics.

Simpler than what, is the key question. For starters, there's the issue of just how much effort it isn't to learn a new ruleset. Most RPGs are pretty much the same, with different numbers: if you know how to play D20 System, you already know how to play HARP and Unisystem and D6 and Earthdawn and a host of others. Figure out success-counting dicepools, and you know how to play Storyteller and ShadowRun and L5R and most of the rest. Comprehend roll-under systems, and i think that's all that's left. Or, rather, pretty much all the mainstream things. It's not 'til you get to things like Dust Devils or Donjon or Everway that there's any kind of significant paradigm shift--everything else is just different numbers.

Secondly, the change between two D20 System games can actually be more confusing , not less--as a lot of people found out going from D&D3E to D&D3.5E [vice going from AD&D2 to D&D3E]. Because most things are the same, and a lot of the differences are subtle, it can be hard to remember which version to use. We occasionally have that problem in my Arcana Unearthed game, because several of the players are very familiar with D&D3E. When i remember some minor rule (like running, frex), i'm never sure whether i'm remembering the D&d3E version, or the AU version--or even if they're different.

 

[woodelf]

Let's not start implying that being content with d20 as a base for one's gaming needs equates to being close-minded. This isn't RPG.net. (And "superior" is generally a matter of opinion.)

There is some validity to what Woodelf is saying, but the simple fact is that, unless you're talking about the "lite"-est of RPGs, it takes time and effort to get up to speed with a new rule system, especially if you're going to GM it. Players can afford to be flying by the seat of their pants, but I feel much more comfortable GMing a game when I am conversant with the rules.

Which, initially, is an argument against D20 System. That is, at some point, every RPer is familiar with zero RPG systems, so the simpler a ruleset is, presumably the quicker it can be learned, and then mastered. Obviously, the ruleset you already know is the one you know the best. But that's a tautology, and has nothing to do with the difficulty of learning a new ruleset.

Ergo, I can understand the POV of someone who, having found a system that they really enjoy, prefers to stick to that system (or variations upon it) so that, having become proficient, prep becomes less about learning the rules than creating interesting scenarios and characters.

But system complexity does have some bearing, here. In roughly the same amount of actual exposure time that i've become mostly-proficient with Arcana Unearthed (i still don't know most of the spells), i've become equally-comfortable with several other systems, without even playing them. Conversely, it'd probably take me roughly 3x the exposure time to reach this level of proficiency with Hero. IOW, again, there're too solutions to the "it takes too much effort to learn a new system" dilemma: stick with what you know, or use simpler systems. And maybe we have different thresholds for "lite", but i've got dozens of systems that i've gotten up to speed on in a couple hours of reading--less than it takes to digest a new set of add-ons (such as a new splatbook) for D20 System.

And, of course, there's the irony that, despite this attitude existing among devotees of other systems, it's the d20 fans who get the "open your mind!" comments. There are plenty of people over at, say, RPG.net who use D6, HeroQuest, FUDGE/FATE, GURPS, etc. for anything and everything they do, and I rarely see anyone accusing them of being close-minded.

Oh, they get guff, too. Especially HERO and GURPS devotees, for whatever reason. Also, the cybermen-like market behavior of D20 System makes it more ofd a sore point: it's much more plausible that D20 System could actually push other things out of the market than that those other systems might.

 

[woodelf]

Which d20 system? Or are you using it as shorthand for D&D?

IMO, the nature of the newbie and their GM is generally a bigger factor.

And what if the GM is a newbie, too?

 

[Hjorimir]

When d20 hit we got so wrapped up in understanding the mechanics that role-playing really started to suffer. Now that we have that all figured out, we are now getting back to higher quality role-playing. No way am I changing systems again!

 

[DragonSword]

When d20 hit we got so wrapped up in understanding the mechanics that role-playing really started to suffer. Now that we have that all figured out, we are now getting back to higher quality role-playing. No way am I changing systems again!

Basically how I feel.

 

[Kanegrundar]

When d20 hit we got so wrapped up in understanding the mechanics that role-playing really started to suffer. Now that we have that all figured out, we are now getting back to higher quality role-playing. No way am I changing systems again!

Amen and well said.

This happened to my group as well, but the D20 system was easy enough to get a handle on that the role-playing didn't suffer for too long. Except for an occasional stint with WHFRP, D20 will be my system for a long time to come.

 

[The_Universe]

With all due respect, just because a question thread is there, doesn't mean you have to answer.

And this will be my third answer, at least.

I think I'm answering with roughly the same level of decorum as the original poster, and certainly with the kind of aplomb that such board luminaries as Diaglo and Hong have taught us to expect.

But as to the thread's original posit...

Still not tired of it.