Tired of d20 yet?

[Arnwyn]

Tired of d20 D&D system yet? Finding yourself wandering more and more often to other games?

Nope... but then, I never got "tired" of 2e after 9 years of playing that, either.

We play D&D/d20 for the medieval/fantasy genre and Fuzion for the futuristic/sci-fi genre. We have done so for many years, and we don't see that changing in the forseeable future.

 

[Mokona]

Even AD&D 2nd Edition couldn't get in the way of a great story told by my skilled DM. I left D&D completely except for that one game. Third edition D&D, on the other hand, is so good that I came back to D&D for all my games (even the less than stellar ones). I haven't played any other system in a while. For a while I played d20 D&D and other games at the same time but not anymore.

 

[WizarDru]

Am I tired of d20 or D&D?

NO. Wow, that was easy...give me another one.

And what if the GM is a newbie, too?

He can purchase the Box Set and/or D&D for Dummies. GURPS offers GURPS-Lite, but that is a simplified system, not necessarily an easier system, at least for a newbie. If Hero or d6 or other systems have such options, I'm unaware of them, but I could find a copy of those two items at most large book stores.

Ultimately, though, most young gamers have no problem adapting to ANY rules systems. They may or may not get it right, but young gamers can absorb this stuff easily. Take a good look at games like Magic:The Gathering, Pokemon, most board games and a large number of computer and video games. A properly motivated gamer can and will absorb this information. I've met young kids who can list the most arcane rulings on sports games, for example...RPGs are no more or less difficult a skill-set, IMHO.

 

[buzz]

And what if the GM is a newbie, too?

Then they'll be equally at sea no matter what game they pick up. Especially so, arguably, if they're using a system that relies more on GM fiat than rules.

 

[buzz]

Which, initially, is an argument against D20 System.

It could be an argument against any system of moderate or greater complexity. I'd still argue that even RISUS is going to take some time.

One might also postulate that the shallow learning curve of "lite" games also corresponds to a shorter overall lifespan of game-play. I.e., you end up at the "been there, done that" point with the system sooner.

Granted, this whole line of argument is suspect. The Heavy v. Lite discussion tends to ignore the fact that complexity often has absolutely nothing to do with why someone decides to devote time to learning and enjoying a system, or why they have an easy/hard time with it. I.e., preference.

IOW, again, there're too solutions to the "it takes too much effort to learn a new system" dilemma: stick with what you know, or use simpler systems. And maybe we have different thresholds for "lite", but i've got dozens of systems that i've gotten up to speed on in a couple hours of reading--less than it takes to digest a new set of add-ons (such as a new splatbook) for D20 System.

I'm happy you've leanred so many games. This doesn't really impact my statement, i.e., that I can understand, and sympathize with, inertia.

Oh, they get guff, too. Especially HERO and GURPS devotees, for whatever reason.

Being a HERO fan, I see more hostility to it as a system than I do hostility to my wanting to play it, FWIW.

Also, the cybermen-like market behavior of D20 System makes it more ofd a sore point: it's much more plausible that D20 System could actually push other things out of the market than that those other systems might.

More accurately, the *perceived* cybermen-like market behavior. I don't even want to touch the second half of that statement.

Not to be confrontational, but I'm not really sure why you post here, woodelf. Reading your posts here and elsewhere, it doesn't seem like you like D&D/d20 much at all. What is ENWorld's appeal to you?

 

[Psion]

When d20 hit we got so wrapped up in understanding the mechanics that role-playing really started to suffer. Now that we have that all figured out, we are now getting back to higher quality role-playing. No way am I changing systems again!

Heh... I think this is a more specific instance of a more general syndrome. Some bashers tear down d20 fans as being "lazy" when they don't want to learn new system. To me, its a simple matter of more quality gaming time. The fewer times I have to learn new systems, the less time spent actually learning the system and more time spent actually playing. Less time is spent getting the character you want or playing a character that was not exactly what you intended because you didn't fully grasp the system, more time is spent playing a character you like. Less time is wasted learning the foibles of the system and stumbling over things you didn't know, more is spent playing a fun and interesting game.

I personally find the approach of "less rules to learn is better" wanting, because IME, that simply isn't the case. I have seen time and time again where folks playing more rules light systems make this claim, and then post about all the extra rules that they added to take care of stuff it couldn't do. And 9 times out of ten, those extras will be worse thought out and integrated than those in the system they were lured away from with false promises of "the system not getting in the way."

 

[Campbell]

I personally find the approach of "less rules to learn is better" wanting, because IME, that simply isn't the case. I have seen time and time again where folks playing more rules light systems make this claim, and then post about all the extra rules that they added to take care of stuff it couldn't do. And 9 times out of ten, those extras will be worse thought out and integrated than those in the system they were lured away from with false promises of "the system not getting in the way."

Quoted for truth.

 

[Akrasia]

....
I personally find the approach of "less rules to learn is better" wanting, because IME, that simply isn't the case. I have seen time and time again where folks playing more rules light systems make this claim, and then post about all the extra rules that they added to take care of stuff it couldn't do. And 9 times out of ten, those extras will be worse thought out and integrated than those in the system they were lured away from with false promises of "the system not getting in the way."

Really? My experience has been quite different.

Most of the variant rules I come across for 'rules light' systems are tweaks to the core rules, introduced to modify the game to the liking of the groups in question -- which, of course, is much easier with a rules light system. Sometimes a few 'new' rules are added, but if the game is genuinely 'rules light', the resulting system is still going to be vastly more 'rules light' than alternate complex systems.

A good 'rules light' system can do everything that a 'rules heavy' system does.

Tweaking the system (modifying the core rules) for one's own group is just a feature -- not a bug -- of 'rules light' systems!

At least that has been my experience, having been involved with comparatively 'rules light' games like Angel/Buffy and C&C over the past year. (I say 'comparatively rules light', because I am speaking of games relative to d20.)

In other words, IME the promise of "the system not getting in the way" has not proved to be false in any way.

 

[WizarDru]

Really? My experience has been quite different.

Most of the variant rules I come across for 'rules light' systems are tweaks to the core rules, introduced to modify the game to the liking of the groups in question -- which, of course, is much easier with a rules light system. Sometimes a few 'new' rules are added, but if the game is genuinely 'rules light', the resulting system is still going to be vastly more 'rules light' than alternate complex systems.

I have to agree with Alan on this one. My experience has been that 'rules light' systems tend to be very unsatisfying, because so much has to either made up (usually on the fly) or just hand-waved. This is fine for a while, but trying to remain consistent becomes a problem and you begin to wonder why you should even bother using a system at all if it comes down to DM fiat so often, or generic ability score checks. Then, a week later, you've either had to write those rules down and codify them or risk making up a different, contradictory solution on the fly the next time. "When in doubt, roll and shout."* has never been my preferred way of resolving things.

* - Old GURPS motto from the core rulebooks

 

[Akrasia]

I have to agree with Alan on this one. My experience has been that 'rules light' systems tend to be very unsatisfying, because so much has to either made up (usually on the fly) or just hand-waved. This is fine for a while, but trying to remain consistent becomes a problem and you begin to wonder why you should even bother using a system at all if it comes down to DM fiat so often, or generic ability score checks. Then, a week later, you've either had to write those rules down and codify them or risk making up a different, contradictory solution on the fly the next time. "When in doubt, roll and shout."* has never been my preferred way of resolving things.

* - Old GURPS motto from the core rulebooks

Exactly which rules light games are you talking about? :\

What you describe here in no way resembles my experiences with (moderately) rules light systems.

What you are describing here are incomplete games -- not rules light games. A good game is complete. A good rules light game simply employs a more general set of mechanics for resolving all relevant situations in a given game.

The two rules light games that I have been involved with over the past year (Angel, C&C) are both 'complete'. While I, as GM, have to sometimes decide which modifiers/abilities/skills, apply to a given situation, I have never had to make stuff up out of the blue, or engage is simple 'fiat'. Yes, rules light systems do rely on GM judgement a bit more than rules heavy systems (which is a virtue IMO). But they are not, for that reason, necessarily incomplete or arbitrary.

(I will be very curious to know how the experiences of you and Psion somehow falsify the actual play experiences of my group -- and many other groups that I know about!)