To Prestige or not to Prestige

[Stalker0]

One rule I would impose on Prc is that unless the Prc is similar in ability to your actual class, then you get multiclassing penalties just like normal.

I mean, its one thing for a monk to become a red avenger, but for a monk to become a hospitaler imho is just as demanding as him become a ranger or a paladin.

 

[Destil]

The problem lies not in the Prestige Class system, it lies with poorly designed prestige classes.

No spellcasting PRC should, really, give +1 spell caster level every level, for instance. Unless there's nearly no other benitif. Wizards and Sorcerers have too little to loose. Loosing some familiar progression and a wizard bonus feat or two is rarely any real loss, particuarly if there are some especialy cool powers in the lower levels of the class.

Likwise I need to wonder if the loremaster was most likely a bit of a mistake, simply as a poor example. A wizard will typicaly give up nothing for this class (you'll get the skill focus feat back, in the long run), and a sorcerer or cleric will make a big sacrifice.

Melee oriented prestige classes are typicaly a bit more commonly balanced, since they will usualy have a handfull of special abilitys or some bonus feats, but not both...

The real key is making sure the class is honestly giving something up, in order to become more specialized. If they just gain more cool abilities, the're simply better.

 

[Kaji]

See, in my practice I've seen many prestige classes used (both of the ones in the above example) and none have ever proved unbalanced.

Unbalanced is certainly highly subjective, however, If you were to take a 20th Wizard and a Wiz15/Archmage5, I'm pretty certain the Archmage would whip the spanking out of his straight Wizard buddie. Anyone ever do any mage duels for something like this?

And if I'm correct, does that not suggest a lack of balance?

Not that I'm actually arguing against it. My wizard is, again, a most certainly "I will take over the world" sort of maniac, so power hungry does not even begin to describe his nuttiness...

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Progress and Order

I've always taken prestige classes when I get a chance and almost never had a problem with them as a DM. A real power-gamer player is just as bad with a core class, so what I should say is that I've never had a comparative problem with them.

As a player I like them because they offer a chance to belong to a more specific group and make it more meaningful to the make of the character then simply saying, "Hey I work for Cormyr and wear purple!"

And I also like them because it's an opportunity to give your character a progression that feels more significant than simply going up a level and choosing theme spells. Prcs let the players radically redefine their characters and do so with a credibility that is lacking in a game with less structured character creation systems. For that reason I often encourage players to create their own prestige classes if they want something different from their character without giving up on his prior expereinces.

Plus: the prestige of having a prestige class gets you into all the right clubs!

As a GM I like them because they are useful way to fill out a world with heroic characters who are flavorful, enigmatic, and can do things with their lives that may be very different from the pcs. And you can use them to add a lot of color to the world.

Thus my love of Swashbuckling Adventures with its mundane surgeons and whacked out sympathetic healers.

 

[Dareoon Dalandrove]

From reading all your responses you have all proven my point. you may not have meant to but... Taking a prestige class, over staying with base class, seems to be "the path to power". in almost every case that i have seen a prestige class give you the same IF NOT MORE than your base class would have. I agree with those of you who have said that a player must decided well in advace to take a prestige class and that the dm should limit things that don't fit with their campaing world. Of course there are always an exception. My whole point was to find out the general opion of presitge classes. With the continuting generation of them from all the d20 companies what is the REAL apeal to stay fighter? Or even sorcerer? I know that this is another can of worms but... I'll keep quiet.

 

[Psion]

From reading all your responses you have all proven my point. you may not have meant to but... Taking a prestige class, over staying with base class, seems to be "the path to power". in almost every case that i have seen a prestige class give you the same IF NOT MORE than your base class would have.

Almost every case? That's unsupportable.

Let's start with the core splatbooks. Unlike the bargain that the archmage is, almost every class in the Tome & Blood that gives you a significant ability costs you a spellcasting level. Unlike a single spell slot, giving up a level of spellcasting makes me wince as it is a permanent setback for the character.

With the continuting generation of them from all the d20 companies what is the REAL apeal to stay fighter? Or even sorcerer?

The number of d20 companies should have ZERO (direct) impact on your choice of prestige classes. As described, prestige classes are stictly a DM choice to integrate or not. The splatbooks all make this abundantly clear in the beginning; if you include prestige classes willy-nilly from 3rd party publishers, you are even more the fool. You are all the more likely to get an unbalanced class if you include them all. The simple -- and default -- answer is not to include them all.

 

[Dareoon Dalandrove]

Almost every case? That's unsupportable.

Let's start with the core splatbooks. Unlike the bargain that the archmage is, almost every class in the Tome & Blood that gives you a significant ability costs you a spellcasting level. Unlike a single spell slot, giving up a level of spellcasting makes me wince as it is a permanent setback for the character.

The number of d20 companies should have ZERO (direct) impact on your choice of prestige classes. As described, prestige classes are stictly a DM choice to integrate or not. The splatbooks all make this abundantly clear in the beginning; if you include prestige classes willy-nilly from 3rd party publishers, you are even more the fool. You are all the more likely to get an unbalanced class if you include them all. The simple -- and default -- answer is not to include them all.

first point
-I'm not refering to just spellcasters. I'm talking about ALL prestige classes. And yes there are requirements. some of them would be things that people would normally take and what your "giving up" is replaced by something even better. So I ask again what is the REAL appeal to stay with a base class?




As to this point I agree. as I already stated. you quoted me but didn't read it all i think. A dm must keep an over all picture of his/her world. If you have, since spell casters keep poping up, people drawing from many different sources of magic they must have in mind how they are all going to interact with each other. You can't just let people run wild.

 

[Chun-tzu]

So I ask again what is the REAL appeal to stay with a base class?

Like I said before, some classes do better off than others, with the current PrC system.

Rogues are faced with a tricky choice. The Rogue has two main strengths, their Sneak Attacks and their skills. Most Rogue prestige classes either slow down or stop Sneak Attack progression, OR offer fewer skill points per level (typically 4 or 6)from a shorter list of skills. And these Rogues do not gain the special abilities available at level 10+.

Rangers are typically forced to give up spells by taking a Ranger-like PrC, because the vast majority of Ranger PrCs do not support spellcasting. By level 20, a Ranger's spell capabilities are one of her greatest strengths! Paladins also suffer from a similar problem.

Druids also get hosed. Because they are primary spellcasters, who also progress in a special ability (Wildshape), AND gain special abilities as they gain levels, they are sure to get hosed on at least two of the above by taking any PrC. Druids lose a LOT.

Finally, there is often the case where there are no PrCs that fit your character. In those cases, it's probably best to stay true to your vision rather than change your character to fit a PrC. I could list tons of common examples. What about a twin longsword wielding fighter? "Tempest" you say? The Tempest has to take several feats that aren't particularly helpful for a two-weapon fighter; the Tempest's off-hand parry is useless with a longsword in the off-hand; Tempest is a bland PrC that gains few abilities and even fewer USEFUL abilities. It's not even general enough to be of use to a double-weapon fighter.

 

[reapersaurus]

Sorry, but IMO as a player, many of the core classes are BORING.

Fighters and their feats are even more boring still.

My idea is heroic fantasy, and I don't see the core class abilities or benefits as being very exciting, or very 'heroic'. (not counting spells)
A hero is more than just a guy with feats and a high BAB.

Many times, the non-spellcasting PrC's are theonly classes that seem to offer something interesting or powerful enough to a high-level combat-type to make a PC heroic enough to go down in lore.

I guess my approach is - if any Joe Blow can do what your 'heroic' PC can in combat, than what tales would they tell (other than lies and exagerrations of your skill).