To RP Game Players/Gamemasters -- What is Fun? What is Unfun?

[Wyrmshadows]

C'mon people....

Other folks have got to have opinions on what is fun and what is unfun for them. This could be interesting. I don't want my thread to die.



Wyrmshadows

 

[Shades of Green]

For me (I know OD&D, 2E and 3.0E, mind you, not 3.5E and 4E):

FUN
1) Rules-light, or at least the option to go rules-light if it fits me and the players. Mechanics that could be easily stripped down to basics if desired. That also means minimal page-flipping during play.

2) Game mechanics that make sense and yield believable results (that is, believable within the setting's context).

3) On one hand a good amount of options to choose from both in character generation and during play, but, on the other hand, not too many options - and choices must be as clear as possible.

4) A balance between combat, exploration and role-playing (I like all three of these more or less equally).

5) A range of different complexity levels between different classes, or, at least, a range of different complexity levels between choices. Beginners, casual players, and people focusing more on RP than rules should be able to enjoy the game as much as experienced players and people who love complex tactics.

6) A simple core mechanic used everywhere - easier to learn and use the system that way.

7) A toolbox approach allowing maximal utilization of my limited prep time.

8) A system that doesn't get in the way of my handwaving and had-hoc rulings as a DM.

9) Fast character generation, especially when the players are experienced - the faster we get to the game itself, the better it is. On the other hand, players should have a range of choices to make to create their own characters.

10) Rules allowing play in one-on-one games or with a small (2-3 players plus DM) party.

UNFUN
1) Rules built with a particular play style in mind marginalizing all else. For example, rules you got to have miniatures to play well, or rules focusing on combat above all else, or a certain level of expected character wealth and amount of magic per level.

2) Over-complex rules, especially ones requiring multiple instances of book-referencing during combat (page flipping during play = double plus unfun!).

3) Significant amounts of prep-time or chargen bureaucracy wasting my limited prep time on number-crunching rather than on plots, schemes, interesting NPC personalities and cool bits.

4) Too much built-in setting assumptions in the core rules. I like to craft my own settings; a rule telling me that I can't have dwarf mages or gnome rangers is a rule I'm probably going to ignore. I also end up ignoring most core-book deities.

5) Character optimization. All character generation choices should be fairly playable; there shouldn't be character-option choices far superior to others or "legal" exploits. More so, the monster/encounter rules should fit most character choices, not just a party of a specific class mix with optimized characters.

 

[JeffB]

Simply put

for me UNFUN =

1) spending more time looking up/reading rules than playing-Anytime rules get in the way, or people let rules get in the way, I get pi$$ed.

2) feeling the need to keep up with the joneses- character optimization, picking the right "combos", etc. I cannot stand the "build" mentality. As a player or DM.

3) *Needing* a board and pieces for the game to run smoothly (I like 4E, but never said it was perfect! )

4) Pretty much every module/super module WOTC has ever published

 

[BeauNiddle]

For me fun is not a single place it's a condition track.

UnHappy -> Happy -> Fun


UnHappy is my character not acting as my character should. Whether it's the dice acting up, the mechanics being insufficient or the story forcing my character against type. I'll occasionally try to explain things in-character but mostly I know it's just me giving up my free time to sit at somebody elses table.

Happy is my character being alive (and not just numbers on a sheet). He does what he was designed to do. He achieves actions that he should achieve.

Fun is roleplaying with my friends, exploring the details of my character, doing silly but appropriate actions so the rest of the table enjoy themselves and can have their characters be all they should be.


The problem is the only way to Fun is by being in Happy to start with. If my character is being out of character (as it were) then no amount of Fun will help.

This is my problem with Savage Worlds - well done you've hit, now roll a toughness check and then the DM will try to soak it just so we can negate your achievement.

and Dark Heresy - here have a 30% success rate, bet you feel the hero now.


I think this is why I like hit points so much. I might not be the best combatant in the world but at least I can prove I've done SOMETHING!

 

[GlaziusF]

I play 4E with a group of friends over the internet. We chat on Skype and use GameTable for the minimap. This is what I like about it:

- I can't roll dice within a confined space to save my life, and like to double-check and triple-check mental addition. Having an impartial agency roll the dice and do the math saves time.

- I can use any image I find on the Internet as map detail or a character mini (with RPTools TokenTool)

- I can separate map details and character minis so when everybody looks at the list of active minis it's sorted in initiative order, and I can drag things up or down in that list to reflect changes.

- I bought PDFs of the books so I can not only easily search them but also cut out bits and arrange them on an on-screen or printable document, to turn empty space into Reference Space.

- I can answer rules questions in a reasonable amount of time, whether it's because the rules are easy to remember or because I've cut them up and set them apart to make them easy to reference.

- I can quickly create a good encounter for my players because the rules tell me this: pick any monsters within 5 levels of the party, and as long as their XP adds up to an amount in this range it will be a reasonable fight that they can win with skill and effort and a slightly bad streak of luck.

- I have a reasonable set of transformations to apply to monsters to make them fit into a good encounter mechanically. There are templates to apply to a monster to turn it into an elite, or an elite into a solo. I can perform a few simple computations to increase or lower a monster's level, but it is suggested I not do so by more than 5. If I know what a monster's racial power is I can pull it out and replace it with a different one - perhaps the minotaurs are not brutal enough to use their goring charge, but their time spent contemplating within an arcane maze has given them the ability to manipulate fate and I can reflect this with elven accuracy or second chance.

- I have a reasonable set of transformations to apply to monsters to make them fit into a good encounter thematically. I can freely rename any monster and make its attacks act any way I choose so long as they do the same damage and have the same effects.

- I can do all of this ahead of time and it doesn't take a lot of time so I can focus more on the aspects of the game the players seem interested in responding to. For example: there are two human bandits in this room with identical stat blocks. One is serious and she advises the rabble and guards on tactics. The other complains all the time and curses fate, because the fortuneteller told him today was going to be full of good omen and he was winning at cards before the other bandit kicked over the table to use as cover.

- I can also use skill challenge rules to set up a more open-ended encounter ahead of time, and prepare the numbers in advance so it will be somewhat reasonable.

This is what I don't like:

- there aren't good ad hoc guidelines for anything but damage. If I want a status effect I can sort of get it by using a power that causes it. That might be alright, if I could search for powers by status effects.

- there are also not good ad hoc guidelines for creating powers with "recharge: roll a d6" riders. This is a shame because it's a perfect justification an ominous dieroll and then an evil laugh.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

and Dark Heresy - here have a 30% success rate, bet you feel the hero now.

At the risk of sounding mean, if you're expecting to be a hero, you're playing Dark Heresy wrong - in fact, in the most opposite way that Dark Heresy is meant to be played.

 

[Ginnel]

Well these come from a player and a DM's point of view

Fun
-Good DM's (the traits with make a good DM are far too many to list here)

-Games which involve specific plothooks for each player character

-Homebrews

-Choices whether in combat, in character design, out of combat its all good.

-Fellow gamers who actually roleplay and come up with good character concepts.

-Balance and Viability and involvement, If i wanted to be sitting at a table watching other people do stuff I'd go to youtube.

-A Flexable system which is easy to DM

-Hanging out with my friends and sharing in this uniquely amazing hobby.

Unfun
-Bad DMs (the traits which make a bad DM are far to numerous to list here)

-Monotonous plots that players and their characters can't affect

-Spotlight hoggers

-Players who can't and won't roleplay.

-People who moan about new stuff because its not the same as the old stuff not because of actual quality.

-People who fall asleep/close their eyes in a game session.

-Complex mechanics that require a year or more of playing to learn perfectly.

-People who don't take the DM's word as final.

 

[Samnell]

Fun:

-Treating the rules as the laws of physics for the world and building the world around that.

-Building worlds. Having rules that help, like the classed NPCs in a community rules in 3e.

-Determining how NPCs would react to PC actions, and seeing the PCs making those same determinations and planning accordingly.

-Having a vast, robust rules toolbox to deploy as I will both as a player and a DM.

-Having choices made during character building have meaningful consequences.

-System mastery, and being rewarded for it.

-A good battle.

-Mechanics for social interactions.

Unfun:

-Rules that constantly demand the DM fix their problems. I want to only have to use DM fiat when I want to.

-Rules that just cease to exist outside of combat.

-Mystery for mystery's sake. I only want mysteries that can be unraveled and de-mystified. The fun of a mystery is obliterating it, not admiring it from a position of supine ignorance.

-Ambiguous rules.

-Worlds that go on even if the PCs don't do something.

-DMs out to do nothing more than screw the players, and players out to do nothing more than annoy the DM.

-You die. No dice rolled.

-PCs with plot immunity.

-Rules-light systems.

-Every PC of every class does more or less exactly the same thing, all the time.

-Rerolls.

 

[cougent]

At the moment I can't really break it down to good descriptive points as has been done by the OP and others, all I can think of is to give 2 examples.

While going down a 10' hallway the group comes to an obstacle, a 20' long pit 10' deep with a 4" wide beam to cross down the middle. The pit is just a pit with no spikes or acid or anything else, just a 10' deep hole.

UNFUN for me:
DM: "Everyone roll balance checks to see if you make it across"
P1: "17"
DM: "You made it"
P2: "12"
DM: "You fell in and take (d6) points of damage, next"
...

FUN for me:
DM: "So how are you guys going to cross this?"
P1: "I have a rope and we can lower Lothar the mighty into the pit. He can then use his 10' pole to study the others as they walk across the beam, that should give us a bonus on balance checks right?"
DM: "Yeah, I will give you a +6 bonus"
P2: "Also since Bentus the sneak has a DEX of 19, I will go first and take another rope across to help out the others as well."
...

I know this is role vs roll, but it is more than that, it is actually being in the game vs being in the room and "Oh, is it my turn to roll?" I want to (and want my players to) work out how to do things, not just what dice to roll and what number to beat. For me, when D&D devolves into a dice game, it becomes a very unfun game. When we use dice just to adjudicate success / failure for specific actions that we have decided to perform then it is a fun game.

 

[Wormwood]

If it feels like work? Not fun.

If everyone is engaged and nobody is bored? Fun.

ps. I'm having a WHOLE lot of fun these days.