D&D 3E/3.5 ToB: Bo9S - Nifft's Compendium

[hong]

As to names, I like 'em plain. Please feel free to change the names & flavor for your campaign -- I've left the flavor mostly empty for exactly that reason -- but for the purpose of this document, I want it to be blindingly obvious that the Martial Assassin is a martial adept who replaces the Assassin prestige class.

I disagree with this. Maybe it's the result of 7 years of reading really bad prestige class fluff, but I think these things should be given some consideration. These days I'm finding that what drives my decision on whether to use a PrC isn't just whether the class crunch is usable, but also whether the fluff inspires me. It doesn't matter if it's the best designed class on the planet; if the backstory is silly, or it has dumb ability names like "bring 'em back alive" or "die for your country", I'm likely to just roll my eyes. Ditto if it has a really boring, completely utilitarian name.

Now I grok that you want to get the crunchy bits right first, before worrying about the fluff, but this isn't the way I'd do it. If you don't want to do this right now, just put in a placeholder like "assassin replacement", and ask for ideas on what the actual name should be. After you get a good name, add a line that it's a drop-in replacement for the DMG assassin. After all, it's just as easy for people to change a fancy name to suit their own campaign, as it is to change a drab name.

And it's not like your stuff is flavour-free anyway. School and maneuver names like "Sanguine Lotus", "black lotus form" and "heart chakra mastery" are a long way from "power attack" and "improved unarmed strike", and convey a sense of mystery or exotica that wouldn't otherwise be there. Consider also how people kept coming back to the name for the medical ninja school, and you'll see that it's something not to take too lightly.

 

[hong]

I was joking about the NotCM, actually....

Ninja of the Crescent Moon

Prereqs:
Sense Motive 8, Spellcraft 4, Knowledge (arcana) 4
Feats: Combat Expertise, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist
Special: Must know at least five Counters (total) from Diamond Mind, Setting Sun and/or Shadow Hand schools.

Without any fluff to go on my impression is that this class is supposed to be some sort of specialised anti-mage killer. Is that right? In which case the Spellcraft and Know(Arc) prereqs make sense. I expect there'll be a few multiclassed wizard/SS's taking this. Sense Motive is a bit weird though, as is Combat Expertise.

But if you're going to call it a ninja, then you should enforce the ninja bit as well. Add Hide and Move Silently 8 ranks.

        Maneuvers[u]
Level   K / R / S   Special Abilities:[/u]
1       1   -   -   Elude Touch
2       1   1   -   Sudden Strike +1d6
3       1   -   1   Spellgrace +1
4       1   1   -   Initiator Power +1
5       1   -   -   Sudden Strike +2d6
6       1   1   1   Spellgrace +2
7       1   -   -   Expert Reflexes
8       1   1   -   Initiator Power +2
9       1   -   -   Sudden Strike +3d6, Spellgrace +3
10      1   1   1   Counter Mastery

Maneuvers: The ninja of the crescent moon learns maneuvers and stances from the Crescent Moon, Diamond Mind, Setting Sun or Shadow Hand schools. At each level, she learns a new maneuver. At every other level, she can ready an additional maneuver. At third, sixth and tenth levels, she learns a new stance.

Elude Touch (Ex): Add the minimum of your class level and your Intelligence bonus to your Touch AC, up to a maximum of your normal (non-Touch) AC. This bonus is similar to a Dodge bonus: it goes away when you are flat-footed.

Sounds complicated. I guess the idea is to amp up the touch AC, without making the normal AC too high? Not really necessary. As a SS you'll likely have Wis bonus to AC already, plus high Dex, so touch AC will be pretty good.

Sudden Strike (Ex): Like Sneak Attack, but doesn't work against flanked foes -- only those who are denied their Dexterity bonus to AC.

I'd give them 1d6 every 3 levels, starting at 1st and improving to +4d6 at 10th. Yeah, it's good in conjunction with the Shadow Hand stance but I can see lots of multiclassing going on to satisfy the prereqs.

Spellgrace (Su): You gain the indicated bonus on all saving throws against spells or spell-like abilities.

I like.

Initiator Power (Ex): You gain the indicated bonus to your Initiator Level when initiating maneuvers from the Crescent Moon, Diamond Mind, Setting Sun or Shadow Hand schools.

Hm, nice. Normally IL doesn't mean a lot but I noticed there's a bunch of Crescent Moon strikes that dispel on a hit. This is meant for use with that, I assume?

I'd actually require a minimum number of Crescent Moon maneuvers per level, say at least half those taken from this class. If you're going to be a ninja of the _Crescent Moon_, it stands to reason you'd be preferentially taught this stuff.

Expert Reflexes (Ex): When using Combat Expertise, you gain a bonus to your Reflex saves equal to the penalty you have taken on your attacks.

Odd. You get a better Ref save in melee than out of it...? I wouldn't worry about it (especially since it seems this ability is the only reason CE is a prereq). Just give them good Ref, mirroring the SS progression. Or not, if you feel that would make the class too strong.

Counter Mastery (Ex): Once per round, you may initiate a Counter from the Crescent Moon, Diamond Mind, Setting Sun or Shadow Hand school as a free (rather than Immediate) action.

Seems a bit too similar to the Diamond Mind stance.

Is there any where you can put in something that uses Stunning Fist? You've got it as a prereq, so it makes sense that the class would actually exploit it.

Hey, why not a maneuver or class ability that gives them SR as a counter?

 

[Nifft]

And it's not like your stuff is flavour-free anyway. School and maneuver names like "Sanguine Lotus", "black lotus form" and "heart chakra mastery" are a long way from "power attack" and "improved unarmed strike", and convey a sense of mystery or exotica that wouldn't otherwise be there. Consider also how people kept coming back to the name for the medical ninja school, and you'll see that it's something not to take too lightly.

Very good point(s), but you illustrate why flavor is hard: people seem to take it very seriously. Some players of mine are examples of this, and it's made me wary of flavor that tends to exclude rather than flavor that merely explains.

When it works right, the flavor helps you understand the metaphor of the mechanics: for example, "Heart Tether" tells you that it's binding a heart to something. It's true that it's more flavorful than strictly necessary -- something like "Vitality Link" might be idempotent in descriptiveness -- but neither is it exclusionary.

One of my players was hesitant to use the Ruby Knight Vindicator class. ("He's not some kind of crusader for his cause! He's supposed to be diplomatic!") Flavor that's over-specified is just another kind of poorly done, IMHO.

However, you're probably right that I'm erring on the side of minimalism. Far better might be to add an "adaptations" section at the end of each bit, which would also give me a nice editorial aside about the intent of various things.

Thanks, -- N

 

[Nifft]

I was joking about the NotCM, actually....

Yeah, I figured. But you're probably the most qualified person I know to comment on a Swordsage prestige class, so I decided to abuse your joke for my own benefit.

Without any fluff to go on my impression is that this class is supposed to be some sort of specialised anti-mage killer. Is that right? In which case the Spellcraft and Know(Arc) prereqs make sense. I expect there'll be a few multiclassed wizard/SS's taking this. Sense Motive is a bit weird though, as is Combat Expertise.

Exactly. I intend it to have a lot of the anti-mage stuff that a full-classed Monk would have, but using maneuvers instead -- and I figure the easiest prefix to get in is SSage / Monk, which would mean that the only "out of class" skill is Spellcraft. Sense Motive is the key skill for Setting Sun, and Monks get Kn(arcana).

It is missing SR, though...

But if you're going to call it a ninja, then you should enforce the ninja bit as well. Add Hide and Move Silently 8 ranks.

Good point. They're getting 8 skill points/level, they should have a lot of skill prereqs and fewer feats.

Sounds complicated. I guess the idea is to amp up the touch AC, without making the normal AC too high? Not really necessary. As a SS you'll likely have Wis bonus to AC already, plus high Dex, so touch AC will be pretty good.

It's similar to what the Wilder gets (different stat though). You're right -- their Wisdom bonus is better. And yeah, it was there to give them an extra edge over the ray-wizard... which they might not need, given their selection of counters.

I'd give them 1d6 every 3 levels, starting at 1st and improving to +4d6 at 10th. Yeah, it's good in conjunction with the Shadow Hand stance but I can see lots of multiclassing going on to satisfy the prereqs.

It's possible without multi-classing (just as Master of Nine is possible)... the skill ranks don't require multi-classing, but taking a level of Monk will cover two feats and one skill.

But I do like the extra +1d6 Sudden Strike. It is more ninja-ish, and will let me weaken the capstone ability.

Hm, nice. Normally IL doesn't mean a lot but I noticed there's a bunch of Crescent Moon strikes that dispel on a hit. This is meant for use with that, I assume?

Yep. And to compensate for any multi-classing you may have done on the way in.

I'd actually require a minimum number of Crescent Moon maneuvers per level, say at least half those taken from this class. If you're going to be a ninja of the _Crescent Moon_, it stands to reason you'd be preferentially taught this stuff.

Since this class is the only way to get Crescent Moon for most PCs, I figured on using carrots rather than sticks... for example:

Seems a bit too similar to the Diamond Mind stance.

It is, but it stacks. And if it's restricted to one free Crescent Moon counter each round...

Is there any where you can put in something that uses Stunning Fist? You've got it as a prereq, so it makes sense that the class would actually exploit it.

Ooo, good point. I had that in for a reason. Hmm. Probably I'd intended to give the ability to use a Stunning Fist in conjunction with a Crescent Moon Strike. That's better in terms of encouraging CM maneuvers, and it's more fitting than Expert Reflexes. Cool.

Hey, why not a maneuver or class ability that gives them SR as a counter?

Right. Monks get SR, and you don't get more anti-magic than SR. Let's see.

Lunar Shield (Su): As an immediate action, you may end a Crescent Moon stance to gain SR until the beginning of your next action. You gain SR equal to 12 + your Initiator Level.

I'll grant it at class level 6, which is 2 character levels (and 1-4 points more) than what a straight Monk could get.

Thanks! -- N

 

[Nifft]

... and the discussed changes have been ninja'd in.

Now there's actually a mechanic for stunning attack, and it applies to many -- but not all -- Crescent Moon strikes.

Counter Mastery is now Lunar Counter Mastery, and only allows one Lunar Crescent counter per round as a free action. It's strong, but strong defense isn't that bad IMHO, and it stacks with the Diamond Mind stance for those who are really concerned with defense.

Cheers, -- N

 

[hong]

Very good point(s), but you illustrate why flavor is hard: people seem to take it very seriously. Some players of mine are examples of this, and it's made me wary of flavor that tends to exclude rather than flavor that merely explains.

Nothing wrong with flavour that excludes. You can't have a class that does everything, or tries to be everything to everybody. And "martial assassin" has plenty of room for being dressed up without excluding people.

One of my players was hesitant to use the Ruby Knight Vindicator class. ("He's not some kind of crusader for his cause! He's supposed to be diplomatic!") Flavor that's over-specified is just another kind of poorly done, IMHO.

What's wrong with that? Remember that, with the exception of bandaids like the mystic theurge, prestige classes are supposed to be more than just loose collections of abilities. You use them as a tool for world-building, to flesh out organisations, and so on. If you treat them as just fancy powerups for character optimisation, then you might as well make them base classes. Saves a lot of tedious messing about with prereqs.

Re the specific example of the RKV: I don't see anything wrong with the flavour, in fact I reckon that's the best part of it. The class has a strong identity, being that of a black ops/special ops agent for Wee Jas. You instantly know what it's about, and how it relates to other classes and characters. This strong identity means that not every Wee Jas character will want to be an RKV, but that's a feature, not a bug. It's a heck of a lot better than those vaguely-defined "champion of Pelor" or "champion of Corellon" PrCs that pop up in other splatbooks. A 20th level cleric or paladin makes a perfectly workable "champion of X"; you don't need a prestige class to represent something as simple as that.

 

[Nifft]

What's wrong with that? [...] You use them as a tool for world-building, to flesh out organisations, and so on.

...

Re the specific example of the RKV: I don't see anything wrong with the flavour, in fact I reckon that's the best part of it. The class has a strong identity, being that of a black ops/special ops agent for Wee Jas.

That specific example was me trying to use a published PrC as a tool for world-building. I changed the gods (no Wee Jas), changed the organization (not particularly black ops, but still very secretive), and the book's write up confused the player in question.

I want to use these things as tools in my world, not as tools in Greyhawk. (Nothing wrong with Greyhawk, just not where we're playing.) And I want to make it easy for others to take what I've written and run with it rather than telling them how to use it.

I think an "Adaptation" section is better than just leaving the flavor text blank (as I'm currently doing). But you're right, I do want to focus more on getting the mechanics right before fleshing out the flavor too much.

Thanks, -- N

 

[hong]

That specific example was me trying to use a published PrC as a tool for world-building. I changed the gods (no Wee Jas), changed the organization (not particularly black ops, but still very secretive), and the book's write up confused the player in question.

Well, I don't think it's the book's fault if your changes weren't what your player was after. Just from what you've written, I don't see that he was being unreasonable either; nothing about the class writeup (crunch or fluff) says "diplomat" to me. If the player had in mind a PC who was more talky than smashy, then it would make sense that he doesn't want to play a RKV. It seems that you may be trying to make the class into something that it isn't.

I want to use these things as tools in my world, not as tools in Greyhawk. (Nothing wrong with Greyhawk, just not where we're playing.) And I want to make it easy for others to take what I've written and run with it rather than telling them how to use it.

Well, that's why prestige classes nowadays all have an "adaptation" section in the writeup. Honestly, I don't see any problem with the ToB writeups as they are, and I consider them excellent examples to follow.

 

[Nifft]

I think an "Adaptation" section is better than just leaving the flavor text blank (as I'm currently doing). But you're right, I do want to focus more on getting the mechanics right before fleshing out the flavor too much.

Well, that's why prestige classes nowadays all have an "adaptation" section in the writeup. Honestly, I don't see any problem with the ToB writeups as they are, and I consider them excellent examples to follow.

Okay.

Thanks, -- N

 

[hong]

Hey, all I'm saying is, don't discount the importance of fluff. And don't worry if the fluff seems overly specific. If it's written well, people will find a reason to use the class.