D&D 3E/3.5 ToB: Bo9S - Nifft's Compendium

[periscope69]

Cool, thanks for verifying. Awesome schools.

 

[Sound of Azure]

Far out, Nifft!

Are you ok? Are getting any sleep?

My creative muse has deserted me temporarily, so all I can say is nice work. I especially like the martial revamps of a number of the Core prestige classes. If my muse ever returns, I might pitch a few ideas in your direction. for now, I guess I'll have to watch in awe.

Thanks for all the effort (esecially now that I can comprehend it a lot better, having now acquired the Bo9S).

 

[Nifft]

Far out, Nifft!

Are you ok? Are getting any sleep?

Thanks! And sleep is for the weak!

Thanks for all the effort (esecially now that I can comprehend it a lot better, having now acquired the Bo9S).

The book is worth owning. But WotC should pay me a frikkin' commission...

Cheers, -- N

 

[periscope69]

Thanks! And sleep is for the weak!



The book is worth owning. But WotC should pay me a frikkin' commission...

Cheers, -- N

Yes they should!

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

Niffit!

I just looked over the Heaven's Arc listings. Many of them look quite cool, and would fit well with an "Elemental" theme. (Stone Dragon for earth, Desert Wind for fire, Heaven's Arc for Wind, and something else for water...)

My comments/questions:
1. - Arc of Celerity seems too good. Granted, "Wind Wall" stops almost all forms of archery, but this still seems better than Time Stands Still (You use it from 150+' away!) And it synergies with the PrC Bloodstorm Blade. (Heck, the entire discipline does... Unless it doesn't work with thrown weapons?)
2. - Flight in the Shade seems a bit weak. Compared to Hail of Arrows, which has a bigger area of effect, this isn't that good. Granted, it can work 150' away, but unless this power has something 'extra' (like not being stopped by windwall) it just seems like Hail of Arrows, but 150' feet away. (Unless this causes alot of damage, It most likely would only work on mooks. If you just want to kill a ton of mooks, hail of arrows is better. )

 

[Nifft]

I just looked over the Heaven's Arc listings. Many of them look quite cool, and would fit well with an "Elemental" theme. (Stone Dragon for earth, Desert Wind for fire, Heaven's Arc for Wind, and something else for water...)

Interesting take on the elements! I hadn't thought of that at all.

1. - Arc of Celerity seems too good. Granted, "Wind Wall" stops almost all forms of archery, but this still seems better than Time Stands Still (You use it from 150+' away!) And it synergies with the PrC Bloodstorm Blade. (Heck, the entire discipline does... Unless it doesn't work with thrown weapons?)

IMHO, Bloodstorm Blade should not be allowed in play. It's one of the few things from the ToB:Bo9S that I do not like at all. So I haven't put any effort into balancing stuff with respect to it or its abilities. :\

As to the power of Arc of Celerity vs. Time Stands Still -- the former is a strict subset of the latter. Time Stands Still only specifies that you make two full attack actions -- you could already make two full attacks with a bow, or javelins, or whatever!

IMHO, the things that really empowers Time Stands Still is Stormguard Warrior (combat rhythm option). Whether you use your two full attacks to "power up" before executing a Diamond Nightmare Blade or use them to deliver the "power up" you got from the previous round's Avalanche of Blades (as touch attacks), it's a devastating maneuver. But you can't do that from range.

Also, full attacks are easier for archers to get, so it's less of a boost in terms of expected attacks over the whole combat.

Finally, there are very few boosts which give you extra ranged damage, compared to boosts and class features which give you extra melee damage. A Warblade may very well be flanking when he initiates Time Stands Still, and would thus gain his Int bonus to all damage rolls -- quite a multiplier! -- but an archer has no such mechanic to reliably generate extra damage.

2. - Flight in the Shade seems a bit weak. Compared to Hail of Arrows, which has a bigger area of effect, this isn't that good. Granted, it can work 150' away, but unless this power has something 'extra' (like not being stopped by windwall) it just seems like Hail of Arrows, but 150' feet away. (Unless this causes alot of damage, It most likely would only work on mooks. If you just want to kill a ton of mooks, hail of arrows is better. )

I'm not really sure what Hail of Arrows is from... it's not in this school, nor is it in the Falling Star school on the WotC forums. Pointer please?

I should specify that the damage does indeed originate from above, so it ignores wind walls and similar defenses. But basically, it's a medium-range fireball that can deal a reasonable amount of damage at will. That's strong, no? It's not one-shot-kill strong, but that's what melee is for (in my humble opinion)!

Thanks, -- N

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

Hail of Arrows: 8th level Arcane Archer PrC class feature.

Though I just looked over the 3.5 version of the class. It seems they expanded the range on Hail of Arrows (to anything "within range") which is a tremendous powerup, if they didn't limit it to one target per class level (10 targets total)

So Flight in the Shade is probably a bit stronger. Also, what effect would this discipline have on targets that have vertical concealment/cover? IE Foes who are under an overhang with a Windwall curtain around them?
Do the [Sky] descriptor maneuvers function on targets with vertical cover? While not always an option, foes possessing vertical cover are impervious to 15% of this discipline's abilities. (and many of them are higher-order powers)

 

[Nifft]

Hail of Arrows: 8th level Arcane Archer PrC class feature.

Ah, right. The core Arcane Archer's ability is stronger in some ways (you can choose your targets, and avoid allies; works indoors; works on foes who are widely separated), but weaker in other ways (no effect on swarms; limited number of targets even if they're all bunched up; limited to once/day; uses up more ammo).

So Fight in the Shade is probably a bit stronger. Also, what effect would this discipline have on targets that have vertical concealment/cover? IE Foes who are under an overhang with a Windwall curtain around them?
Do the [Sky] descriptor maneuvers function on targets with vertical cover? While not always an option, foes possessing vertical cover are impervious to 15% of this discipline's abilities. (and many of them are higher-order powers)

Only a few maneuvers care about your target's overhead cover, and those are called out in the descriptions. Diverted Shot (1st level, not Sky) cares, for example, but Zephyr Call (8th level, Sky) does not care. The (Sky) thing means you can't have overhead cover.

Fight in the Shade is one of the maneuvers which does care. So, if you had overhead cover and nothing else, you'd be immune to this maneuver. Buildings, tower shields oriented "up", a horizontal wall of force -- there are some counters.

Does that make sense?

Thanks, -- N

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

Ah yes. I wasn't sure since you listed the descriptor as mattering only for the initiator of the maneuver.
Yes, I can see the Heaven's Arc being very popular. Especially in a ToB oriented game. Against a bunch of melee-oriented foes, who wouldn't want to fight from 300+ feet away?

Also, with the moves like Hindering Volley and Entangling Volley, why are they touch attacks? Mechanically, they might not be useful if they weren't, but is there a fluff reason they do what they do? Do they strike at vitals to hinder the creature, in which case a creature with no vitals would be immune? Like Entangling Shot - How does it entangle them? (It matters, because if "the bonds are anchored to an immobile object or tethered by an opposing force." then movement is entirely prevented.)
Of course, it appears you aren't done with the descriptions yet, so maybe my questions will be resolved then.

 

[Nifft]

Ah yes. I wasn't sure since you listed the descriptor as mattering only for the initiator of the maneuver.

Cool; I'll clear up the description.

Yes, I can see the Heaven's Arc being very popular. Especially in a ToB oriented game. Against a bunch of melee-oriented foes, who wouldn't want to fight from 300+ feet away?

Most of the more potent strikes should be limited to within one range increment, which is 110 ft. (for an unaugmented longbow), or 165 ft. (longbow + Far Shot), or 245 ft. (longbow + Far Shot + Sphere of Distant Stars) at the very most.

But yeah, in part I'd like to re-introduce the roles of melee, archer and "cavalry" (flanker). The idea is that out in the open, archers trump melee; but a cunning Swordsage could sneak and/or teleport up and stab the archer. Of course, the melee guys trump the Swordsage in a stand-up fight. Thus the circle is complete, without need for a Wizard (the usual anti-tank trump card).

Also, with the moves like Hindering Volley and Entangling Volley, why are they touch attacks? Mechanically, they might not be useful if they weren't, but is there a fluff reason they do what they do? Do they strike at vitals to hinder the creature, in which case a creature with no vitals would be immune? Like Entangling Shot - How does it entangle them? (It matters, because if "the bonds are anchored to an immobile object or tethered by an opposing force." then movement is entirely prevented.)

My visual on Hindering Volley (and similar) is the arrow snagging its target's clothing, or sticking in his belt, or twisting his scarf around his head, or even knocking his helm visor so he can't see properly and has to spend time re-adjusting it.

I pondered the strength of the entanglement. But I ended up preferring to entangle like entangling ectoplasm rather than like entangle, but leave the door open for the DM to grant additional penalties. I'll add a note that it does NOT automatically hold the target fast, but at the DM's discretion, some fashion statements may face additional penalties.

Of course, it appears you aren't done with the descriptions yet, so maybe my questions will be resolved then.

The only way I can get the language to be comprehensible outside my head is to get feedback exactly like this.

Thanks! -- N