payn
Glory to Marik
Yeah, whole thing was too derivative for me. Also, Card is an awful human being so its even easier to forget about it.
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Bedrockgames
I post in the voice of Christopher Walken
I mean if you didn't like it, you didn't like it. I really don't think it was that derivative though (no more than any other work of science fiction is derivative). There is a reason it is regarded as a classic. I think in recent years his politics has kind of overwhelmed his reputation. But I remember reading his books back in the 80s and 90s and they were always reliable well done. Some of his less known series were really entertaining. I think his writing did start to get pretty creaky towards the end of the 90s (and I don't think this is related to his political views, just some writers wear out and I think he had a stroke at one point). I should say, I don't agree with Card's politics. But something I like about science fiction is you engage with writers who often have wildly different viewpoints about things. But the politics in enders game I generally found to be nothing objectionable
Ryujin
Legend
I've made this comment, here and elsewhere, many many times. To paraphrase Heinlein he wrote "Starship Troopers" and got called a Fascist. He wrote "Stranger in a strange Land" and got called a Communist. He was just telling stories.
One of the bigger questions asked in "Starship Troopers" was, "Should people who aren't willing to give to society be able to control that society's direction?" I say question, not statement, because I think that's what is intended. The themes are very heavy on Civic Duty and the topic of Civics in general. Sometimes a story is written to amplify a point, to make sure that it's clearly made.
Bedrockgames
I post in the voice of Christopher Walken
Keep in mind I really did like Starship Troopers and am not trying to attack it or Heinlein. I don't think Starship Troopers was fascist (the movie used the book to parody fascism) but I think its overall tone was just more pro-military and pro-war. It has been a number of years since I read it, so possible I am forgetting something about it. But that is my memory at least. I do think he made a very compelling case for his position in Starship Troopers. I enjoyed his arguments, even where I might not have agreed with him. Also Heinlein doesn't fit neatly into political categories, but I do tend to think ST reflected a genuine militaristic worldview
There is also nothing inherently contradictory about a fascist story or a militaristic one and a socialist or communist one (plenty of communist countries were militaristic and rules with an iron fist).
That all said, I agree, he was telling good stories which is what matters in the end. Just like Arthur C Clarke, Haldeman, Herbert, and Asimov were all telling good stories. And I do think it is easy to be overly simplistic when talking about the message of his stories. I found ST militaristic, but there is also a lot more going on in it than that alone.
This was one of the compelling points. And again, I don't necessarily disagree with where ehe seemed to be pointing, but I also do agree with you, it felt like a question in that as a reader I felt like I was engaging with him, not being lectured to by him.
Ruin Explorer
Legend
The problem with this is that Starship Troopers isn't "just asking questions".
It's asking them and then answering them before you can even consider them, let alone open your mouth to answer.
It does this over and over. That's part of why it doesn't stop to let you think about the natural flaws of such a system, it immediately starts trying to paper over them.
This is further confirmed, note, by the fact that later on, Heinlein devoted part of an entire other book (on his work, I forget the title) to backfill and retcon on Starship Troopers, absolutely none of which was needed if your thesis about "just asking questions" was true, but which is exactly what you'd do if you believed the political ideology in said book had merit and needed to be protected.
You can make a much better case that Strange in a Strange Land was "just asking questions", especially as Heinlein later repeatedly rejected the ideology that the book suggests, whereas he's repeatedly defended the ideology that Starship Troopers suggests.
So let's not pretend this is all in some knowledge-less vacuum.
No, not really. This is a weird thing to say in fact. The start of the book is very heavy on that, and then its almost people forgotten in favour of weird xenophobic stuff which really LOOKS like it's trying to glorify corporal punishment and wars against Asian people (esp. as a lot of the accusations thrown at the nebulous enemy sound awwwwwfully like ones thrown at communist China at that time). Civics is rapidly forgotten in favour of macho naughty word generally.
Ruin Explorer
Legend
It's not just tone, it's text. And the society described can literally only function in a 40K-style "In the grim darkness of the far future there is only war"-style situation, because he has an insanely massive and by the book's own admission, "make work" military.
Bedrockgames
I post in the voice of Christopher Walken
I am not sure we disagree. I would see the militarist future as part of the books tone and text
payn
Glory to Marik
Yeah, a lot of the cold war flavored sci-fi fiction heavily at the time. There is a ton of "good ol military Joe is exceptional and wins the day" stuff in Heinlein's writing. So, yeah I agree, this is exactly the kind of thing the USMC would want a person they are training to jump on a grenade to read.
If you want "asking good questions" Sci-Fi, you should read P.K. Dick instead.
Ruin Explorer
Legend
Or even Heinlein's own Stranger in a Strange Land, but those questions might be uncomfortable for the USMC.
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