D&D General Todd Kenreck Let Go from WotC

I object to the term "open access BS". If the government funds research, that research should be freely available to everyone. That might require changes to the business models of journals, and possibly adding funding to that end of the research chain, but the idea of paying again for access to research already funded with my (or someone else's) tax money is repugnant.
It is BS because the government is not paying for peer review and publication. Even foundations like Gates are now refusing to pay OA fees.

The OA folks want to bring it all in house now and have only government or institutions pay for all the peer review and production services, which is why they are trying to push open peer review etc because OA models make terrible money.

It has caused widespread moves to offshore along with the rise of predatory OA, often run by criminal groups.

OA was an unfunded pipe dream that consistently loses money.

If they want it, then they need to pay enough for living wages so we do not have offshore to sweat shops.
 

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It is BS because the government is not paying for peer review and publication. Even foundations like Gates are now refusing to pay OA fees.

The OA folks want to bring it all in house now and have only government or institutions pay for all the peer review and production services, which is why they are trying to push open peer review etc because OA models make terrible money.

It has caused widespread moves to offshore along with the rise of predatory OA, often run by criminal groups.

OA was an unfunded pipe dream that consistently loses money.

If they want it, then they need to pay enough for living wages so we do not have offshore to sweat shops.
This is interesting. I am a layman in this arena. Both you and @Staffan seem to be coming at this with backgrounds in this realm. For those in the studio audience, please break down the points you are trying to make. Talk to me like I'm five years old.

The gist of this from my perspective so far: Staffan feels that open access has benefits if adopted today. Some pain might be applied to the path that these studies take, but he feels that this is a minor inconvenience. I'd like to see details on this viewpoint!

Then you present a counterpoint: the cost of open access pushes the funding from ideally more respected governmental and institutional sources to these 'shadowy offshore, predatory, possibly criminal' backers. Explaining how these folks would come to be involved (i.e. criminal, predatory) involved and the impact of that involvement would help us layfolk understand this discussion.
 

I object to the term "open access BS". If the government funds research, that research should be freely available to everyone. That might require changes to the business models of journals, and possibly adding funding to that end of the research chain, but the idea of paying again for access to research already funded with my (or someone else's) tax money is repugnant.
Any kind of "science" must be open access, by definition, repeatable by independent reviewers.

It is in the interest of the citizens of any government to promote − and even enforce − science.
 

This is interesting. I am a layman in this arena. Both you and @Staffan seem to be coming at this with backgrounds in this realm. For those in the studio audience, please break down the points you are trying to make. Talk to me like I'm five years old.

The gist of this from my perspective so far: Staffan feels that open access has benefits if adopted today. Some pain might be applied to the path that these studies take, but he feels that this is a minor inconvenience. I'd like to see details on this viewpoint!

Then you present a counterpoint: the cost of open access pushes the funding from ideally more respected governmental and institutional sources to these 'shadowy offshore, predatory, possibly criminal' backers. Explaining how these folks would come to be involved (i.e. criminal, predatory) involved and the impact of that involvement would help us layfolk understand this discussion.
OA proponents believe that science should be free. It gained traction in the early 2000s by stating the government funded research should be freely available. That it not a bad goal and big publishers were charging out the nose for access so it was easy to demonize the industry.

Instead of thousands of subscribers paying for access. The OA model charges a fee from authors who get accepted; however, this does not pay for the people or infrastructure needed for peer review. OA journals were forced to drop standards and accept more papers to make more money. This dropped quality and standards across the industry.

I know I was told that I had to accept lower quality papers and fire editors who refused to publish low quality papers.

OA proponents have moved farther to try to eliminate publishers by pushing for more extreme models for OA, such as Diamond Open Access.

They think that nations or NGO can take over peer review and dissemination but they have no experience and the efforts have been poor.

The entire movement was pushed before an effective model was found. It caused a rise in fake, predatory journals that accept content without review, charge for it and place it online asap thus making authors unable to publish elsewhere due to duplicate publication standards.

I do not disagree that science should be more open, but OA models are terrible and the proponents assign no value to the work of managing peer review, editing, and dissemination of the final product.
 

OA proponents believe that science should be free. It gained traction in the early 2000s by stating the government funded research should be freely available. That it not a bad goal and big publishers were charging out the nose for access so it was easy to demonize the industry.

Instead of thousands of subscribers paying for access. The OA model charges a fee from authors who get accepted; however, this does not pay for the people or infrastructure needed for peer review. OA journals were forced to drop standards and accept more papers to make more money. This dropped quality and standards across the industry.

I know I was told that I had to accept lower quality papers and fire editors who refused to publish low quality papers.

OA proponents have moved farther to try to eliminate publishers by pushing for more extreme models for OA, such as Diamond Open Access.

They think that nations or NGO can take over peer review and dissemination but they have no experience and the efforts have been poor.

The entire movement was pushed before an effective model was found. It caused a rise in fake, predatory journals that accept content without review, charge for it and place it online asap thus making authors unable to publish elsewhere due to duplicate publication standards.

I do not disagree that science should be more open, but OA models are terrible and the proponents assign no value to the work of managing peer review, editing, and dissemination of the final product.
Got it. @Staffan , rebuttal?
 

Got it. @Staffan , rebuttal?
My basic position is that if the government pays for the research, access to it should be free to everyone. I am not involved enough with academia to have a firm idea about what is needed to make that work, but as a first step one could take the money universities and libraries pay to get subscriptions to various journals and use it to fund peer review and such directly.
 

AI.

Who would know the difference?

I didn't even do a quick pass over it. Didn't even have to format it. That's just how the engine spat it out. Give it to an Editor to maybe change Enchantment to Evocation... or not.
Even if people can't tell that it's AI generated, they can tell that it's basically an underleveled Synaptic Static and wonder why WotC is publishing redundant spells.

I'm as big an AI enthusiast as anyone on this forum, but even I can tell that the quality of current AI generated content is nowhere close to professional level. AI can generate bits of content that are OK in isolation, but if you try to generate an entire book's worth of content it's going to be an incoherent mess, with amateur quality writing and no unifying theme.

WotC might want to think that gamers will buy anything with a D&D logo, but if they try to test that with AI written books I'm sure that sales will quickly drop sharply as customers reject the low-quality products.
 

My basic position is that if the government pays for the research, access to it should be free to everyone. I am not involved enough with academia to have a firm idea about what is needed to make that work, but as a first step one could take the money universities and libraries pay to get subscriptions to various journals and use it to fund peer review and such directly.
Right. You are just restating your original position, in a single sentence, nothing new brought to the table. Not very persuasive as an argument to be honest! Did you read @Belen 's counter? Try to jibe that with your position and try again.
 

My basic position is that if the government pays for the research, access to it should be free to everyone. I am not involved enough with academia to have a firm idea about what is needed to make that work, but as a first step one could take the money universities and libraries pay to get subscriptions to various journals and use it to fund peer review and such directly.
How do you think peer review is funded now? It is funded by those subscriptions and Open Access fees. The average OA fee that an author pays is north of $3,000/paper now. Publishers have been working with universities to create read and publish deals that give institutions a set number of "free" OA submissions per year and then combines that with subscriptions for the non-OA content. Of course, like everything OA, the wealthy nations, senior authors with hefty grants, and institutions benefit. Why? Because they can afford to fund OA.

Who cannot afford it? Young researchers with limited grants and funding and less funded institutions and nations. Publishers try to allow free OA submissions from developing countries but the budget for such waivers is highly limited. Additionally, OA has led to serious drains for research societies who relied on their journals for funding. Society publications are being absorbed by publishers because they can no longer compete on volume. Publishers have turned around and reduced the funding they give to societies, forcing them to adopt lower standards for peer review, copyediting, and channeling their content into agreements that cede more control to large publishers.

Finally, this has led to the rise of large content aggregator platforms controlled by an increasingly smaller number of publishers. Institutions have been shedding journal subscriptions in favor of buying subscriptions access to the large platforms. The large platforms demand increases in content to justify continued price hikes. This has further eroded the journal and is killing independent societies and journals, thus concentrating more power into fewer massive publishers.

Publishers, in turn, are merging and buying each other and any groups that offer competition to their prices and services. This is why we are getting massive offshoring and the move into more AI tools.

OA is a nice concept, but the proponents have no way to pay for it outside massive grants from organizations like the Gates Foundation, Welcome Trust, and governments. Government funding for science is iffy now and they are very stingy with any money to publish. The average research grants generates 10-15 papers. This means that authors are paying 35k+ to publish and if they have grants from the government or places like Gates, then they are mandates to only publish OA.

It is a mess. Governments fund research. The average person is not going to understand it. People should pay for the value added peer review, production, marketing, hosting and dissemination. That is work that was not funded. Let the un-peer-reviewed, raw papers be free with disclaimers on them that they have not been been peer reviewed.

By the way, university and library budgets have been under assault for 20 years. They cannot afford to run peer review. They can barely afford to maintain access to content platforms. They have no money to purchase the average 50-75k/year submission system, staff to run peer review (100-300k), honoraria to pay editors (50-200k), production (100-200k), hosting platforms (100k), marketing to increase dissemination (200k). The average journal can cost 500k per year, usually more, to operate and maintain.
 

Right. You are just restating your original position, in a single sentence, nothing new brought to the table. Not very persuasive as an argument to be honest! Did you read @Belen 's counter? Try to jibe that with your position and try again.
You are coming off as weirdly demanding that people have a debate for your benefit when Staffan said he wasn’t an expert on the topic.

I am jumping in as someone that was also rubbed the wrong way with the initial comment of “open access BS” which came off as dismissive of the concept as a whole but the follow up seems more reasonable in objecting to how access has been implemented than in the goal itself. I agree that expecting authors to support the publication costs hasn’t kept up with actual costs while also placing more burdens on researchers (especially at places like my small undergrad school where funding is already tight).

However subscription based publications have also responded in ways creating additional problems. Seeing publications lowering standards trying to compete with low quality predatory publications (which most academics I’ve talked with also look down on) also contributes to devaluing the work of journals as people wonder why they are paying subscription costs for lower quality. We’ve also seen issues with publishers leveraging ownership of large numbers of journals to do things like bundle high reputation subscriptions with less desired journals (again a concern for schools like ours that have to be judicious in how they spend limited resources) which can also be seen as predatory.
 

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