Tome of Battle: Book of 9 Swords - Things to watch out for?

[Rystil Arden]

It could be that her fighter wasn't quite optimal. I also know I allowed things to take place in the campaign that I shouldn't have (especially the wizard getting hold of a very... large... spell book from another dead wizard, thus a lot of "free" spells known). It was my first campaign ever DMing, and I know I was far from a good DM in it. There are many mistakes I hope not to repeat...

Regardless of that, though, the Wizard still out shined the Fighter. She did not want to take the standard feat chains that every fighter takes. She wanted flexibility. Sadly, that hurt her character more than helped. That's not to say she wasn't a good fighter - she was! (Especially after getting reincarnated as a Lizardfolk.) But the Wizard was still quite capable of handling most every encounter, I'm sure.

Ouch! A suboptimal Fighter is admittedly in very serious trouble in any game. I may disagree with Nifft that the Fighter is always behind, but I do agree that the Fighter who does not choose very carefully can fall catastrophically behind. It is one of the hardest classes to optimise well because of the vast number of feat choices and chains. Martial adepts, on the other hand, are very easy to optimise. If the player in question likes playing meleers, I suggest having her play a Martial Adept. It's very hard to make an incompetent one because they have so many useful all-around bennies. If she insists on having 'something from everything', steer her towards the Master of Nine. Otherwise, you can't go wrong with most combinations that focus on one or two schools (Stone Dragon + Devoted Spirit focused Crusaders are particularly potent!)

 

[Terraism]

Then Bo9S comes along with melee classes that shine. As I've said - as long as it's not game breaking, I think that's GREAT. Because they need to shine. And right now, they don't. Not beside spellcasters, anyway. Even the Bo9S classes couldn't go up against a decent Wizard or Druid, I don't think. Probably not the Cleric, either. And I think that's good - spellcasters should be more powerful. That's magic.

I actually almost agree with the last bit of your statement... except that I don't agree magic classes should win. More powerful, yes - but I also think they should be weaker in areas they haven't specialized in than non-magical characters are. That's not really Bo9S related, though, so I'm not going to pursue the line.

That doesn't mean, however, that you can't have melee classes that start to reach beyond their current potential. In my opinion, they've had it coming for a long time. It's only fair...

Anyway, my point is, you've experienced that with Bo9S? I've seen it happen with a Wizard. You don't see people suggesting we ban wizards. Why is it so different with Bo9S?

In my case, I love that Bo9S boosts melee classes up. They have had it coming. My issue is with the flavour, not mechanics, of Bo9S, and I suspect I'm not the only naysayer who feels that way. As for the "they'll outshine fighters, so I won't use them," that's how I'm running it right now. Yes, casters do outshine the fighters, but at least it's a semi-different niche - the same can't be said for Bo9S. Once I have a way for straightforward, non-magical melee folk to compare to the quasi-mystical Bo9S folk, I'll have both options opened up. Until then, no.

 

[Vorput]

In my case, I love that Bo9S boosts melee classes up. They have had it coming. My issue is with the flavour, not mechanics, of Bo9S, and I suspect I'm not the only naysayer who feels that way. As for the "they'll outshine fighters, so I won't use them," that's how I'm running it right now. Yes, casters do outshine the fighters, but at least it's a semi-different niche - the same can't be said for Bo9S. Once I have a way for straightforward, non-magical melee folk to compare to the quasi-mystical Bo9S folk, I'll have both options opened up. Until then, no.

That brings up another good point. Does D&D as it is now not allow for the classic swordfighter? The Warrior who doesn't use magic, but is good enough with his sword to be considered legendary? Like Aragorn, or Druss, or Conan, etc.

Is the only solution available to melee classes giving them balls of fire, healing abilities, and the ability to teleport through shadows? Cause if so- that's sad... It's destroying a staple of classic fantasy.

 

[castro3nw]

People who make a thread with something like: "I love the mechanics behind Bo9S, but I have a few issues..." The tendency is to jump on them and say "The problem is with you, not Bo9S. You can't read it well enough, or you haven't seem them in play, and you're wrong. I've played it and Bo9S is fine and you need to get with the program." But that isn't always true for every game, and I think we need to recognise that.

Blah blah blah... grumpy mood

In my experience, it seems there are fewer people saying "I have a few issues..." and more people saying "Warblade is broken! All PHB melee classes are obsolete!" And in my opinion, those people are wrong. And yes, I'll argue that they're wrong... I think people who come here looking for information need both sides of the story.

I play a warblade (diamond mind/white raven) in a party with a paladin and a barbarian/fighter... The barbarian consistently out damages me, has more Hp, and damage reduction. The paladin will out damage me on a smite, and can also heal people and do paladin-y things.

Anyway... If you like your restrictions and fixes... Great. Enjoy your game however you feel best about it. I'm just of the opinion that people should try it out as written first, with as few changes as possible. Then if it's necessary, they can change whatever they feel needs it. blah blah blah... more grumpy mood

 

[Vorput]

I play a warblade (diamond mind/white raven) in a party with a paladin and a barbarian/fighter... The barbarian consistently out damages me, has more Hp, and damage reduction. The paladin will out damage me on a smite, and can also heal people and do paladin-y things.

I don't have the book in front of me, but don't warblades and barbarians have comparable HP (d12 hit die)? They can gain damage reduction through maneuvers, right? There's also the school- Devoted Spirit- that allows healing (that might be crusader only actually). I'm surprised with all those crazy damage maneuvers that the paladin can out damage you with a smite- and even if he can once to a single evil opponent, you can use your maneuvers a lot more times per day than the paladin can smite without the alignment restriction.

And then discuss it in house rules, instead of trying to tell people that the classes only work if you do X.

The OP asked for specific things to watch out for, and the way this book messes with the flavor of your typical D&D world is one of them.

 

[Nifft]

The interesting thing is that I think we are much the same as players, you and I. I too like playing the martial adepts but am bored to tears playing a Fighter. On the other hand, I don't want to force that upon my players, who don't hold the same opinions. And for at least one, pulling the carpet out from under him by adding new classes that make his obsolete would be like that. Now, he wouldn't get mad and rail out against that decision or anything like that, but I can tell he doesn't enjoy the sessions as much when his character is marginalised.

And this last bit is the bit that I just don't get.

A raging, Power Attacking, full-attack Barbarian will out-damage any Martial Adept.
A (properly constructed) Fighter will out-trip any Martial Adept.

They're effective but boring (IMHO). If your player isn't bored with them in a Core game, why would he be bored with them in a game that also had Martial Adepts? And if he's not bored, why must he feel marginalized when he's still the best at his one little (boring IMHO) trick?

- - -

In my current game, there's a Swordsage and a Fighter (both cohorts). Neither player is unhappy. And that's 100% cool with me, even if I would personally prefer to play one rather than the other.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Nifft]

That brings up another good point. Does D&D as it is now not allow for the classic swordfighter? The Warrior who doesn't use magic, but is good enough with his sword to be considered legendary? Like Aragorn, or Druss, or Conan, etc.

Is the only solution available to melee classes giving them balls of fire, healing abilities, and the ability to teleport through shadows? Cause if so- that's sad... It's destroying a staple of classic fantasy.

Conan is a Barbarian. He can Rage, and thus out-damage any wussy "initiator".

Aragorn is a Ranger. Of course he can cast spells! He can also command legions of the undead.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Vorput]

Aragorn... can also command legions of the undead.

Touche.

 

[avr]

A warblade focusing on Iron Heart is a classic swordfighter.

 

[castro3nw]

I don't have the book in front of me, but don't warblades and barbarians have comparable HP (d12 hit die)? They can gain damage reduction through maneuvers, right? There's also the school- Devoted Spirit- that allows healing (that might be crusader only actually). I'm surprised with all those crazy damage maneuvers that the paladin can out damage you with a smite- and even if he can once to a single evil opponent, you can use your maneuvers a lot more times per day than the paladin can smite without the alignment restriction.

Yes, same hit die. Warblade has an interest in having an intelligence score though, so losing out on some of my point buy that could have gone into con.

With the right maneuvers a warblade can gain DR/adamantine for a round here/there, but DR/- is alot tougher to get through. Those maneuvers grant DR5, 10 and 20, at a cost of making only a single attack with no particular added damage. There's also a stance that grants DR2/-, but it ends if you move more than 5' in a round and thus will eat up precious swift actions.

A barbarian will always have his DR, and can make multiple attacks per round or can move and keep his DR.

Yes, Devoted Spirit heals. Yes it's Crusader only.

As for the paladin.. 2-H weapon and power attack tends to out damage Sword/Board w/o power attack. Besides, we're at level 10 (5th level maneuvers). White Raven and Diamond Mind don't really have a high-damage strike at 5th level... High damage strike is still level 4 White Raven Strike... +4d6 damage/flat footed. The party rogue loves it.