Tome of Battle - Questions

[Binho]

Hello guys,

I had a discussion with @Jack Simth about gestalt cloistered cleric on another thread and he suggested that swordsage would be better with CC than a druid. Actually I not even knew the Swordsage class until a few days ago and I think Jack is right.
Indeed, the idea of Wis to AC even with armor is what I aimed in monk. Swordsage has it. But, unfortunately, SS do not have flurry (the only reason I like monks) and fast movement. So I was making a multiclass monk and swordsage to use flurry and maneuvers.
That’s where the doubts begin. There are maneuvers that give extra attacks, but I don’t understand how this would affect flurry, because of this:

Maneuvers - TYPE - Strike: Because strikes allow for a specific form of attack, you cannot benefit from spells or effects that grant you extra attacks when making a strike (such as the haste spell or a speed weapon). You are not taking a full attack action when you initiate a strike, even if its initiation action is 1 full-round action. In addition, you cannot combine special attacks such as sunder or bull rush with strikes, even if you have feats that make such special attacks more potent. However, some strikes enable you to make special attacks as part of their initiation

I’m interested in these maneuvers: Flashing Sun, Dancing/Raging Mongoose and Time Stand Still. My main question is can I use feats or class abilities with strike maneuvers? Or are flurry of bows, Two Weapon Fighting, Arcane Strike and Stunning Fist considered “special attacks”?

Other specific questions:
1) Snap Kick + Flurry of Bows
The unofficial errata says that you can combine snap kick when initiating strikes. The WotC forum says that you can combine snap kick with flurry of bows. Can you make your unarmed strike as both your main weapon and your off hand weapon and add TWF to the combo? Let’s say a monk 1/warblade 19 would get a BAB of +19/+14/+9/+4, with the combo you get +13/+13/+8/+3/-2 (full Str bonus to damage) and +13/+13 (half str to damage), totalizing 7 attacks?

2) Flashing Sun: Strike – Full Round Action – Gain extra attack taking a -2 in all your attacks
Can I use it with flurry?

3) Time Stands Still: Strike – Full Round Action – Take full attack action two times.
The full attack action can be the Flurry/Snap Kick/TWF combo?

4) Dancing Mongoose: Boost – Swift Action – Make one extra attack with each weapon (max of two extra attacks); Raging Mongoose: Boost – Swift Action – Make two extra attacks with each weapon carried (max four extra attacks)
Can I treat the unarmed strike as both primary and off-hand weapon?

5) Can I combine Maneuvers?
Like using time stands still+raging mongoose+flashing sun strike+flurry+snap kick+twf. So you would use the first full attack action to do the flurry+snap kick+twf with the raging mongoose and the second full attack action to use flurry+snap kick+twf with flashing sun, totalizing 19 attacks in the case of monk/warblade? (wow… my head hurts…)

6) the Shadow Sun Ninja prestige class can give great flurry if you get monk 1?
The PrC description says that the SSN is added to monk levels to give the flurry penalties, but is unclear that it gives the great flurry of monk 11.

I would really appreciate your help.

 

[Sekhmet]

Question 2: Yes.
Question 3: Yes.
Question 4: No - unarmed strikes are never "off hand". Likewise, you can't Two Weapon Fight with unarmed strikes.
Question 6: As I read it, you do not acquire Greater Flurry.

 

[Binho]

Question 2: Yes.
Question 3: Yes.
Question 4: No - unarmed strikes are never "off hand". Likewise, you can't Two Weapon Fight with unarmed strikes.
Question 6: As I read it, you do not acquire Greater Flurry.

Again, no love for the poor monk... Dancing Mongoose and Raging Mongoose would not be optimized for a monk.

I see, flurry can not be used with TWF. I saw this article and read that unarmed strike can be your off hand weapon with some bonuses (just if you are a monk).

According to the article, the Monk 1/Warblade 19 that have Bab of +19/+14/+9/+4 can use a great sword as the primary attack and the unarmed strike as the secondary attack.

If this build uses flurry, he would be able to attack only with unarmed strike with +17/+17/+12/+7/+2, five attacks with unarmed damage + full STR modifier. With raging mongoose it would be +17/+17/+17/+17/+12/+7/+2. Total of 7 attacks with 1d6+STR of damage.

If this build take the two weapon fighting feat, the total of attacks would be +17/+12/+7/+2 with the great sword (damage equal to 2d6+1.5*STR mod) plus one +19 unarmed attack (damage equal to unarmed damage+full STR mod). Total of five attacks that deal more damage and has better attack bonus than the flurry. Besides, this build could use the Raging Mongoose to make +17/+17/+17/+12/+7/+2 with GS plus +19/+19/+19 with unarmed strike. Total of 6 attacks with 2d6+1.5*STR and 3 attacks with 1d6+STR of damage.
I'm not even counting Greater/Improved Two Weapon Fighting feat.

A monk would be better taking Devastating Strike instead of Flurry and taking TWF feat...

But question 5 still remains: can I combine time stand still with flashing sun? So i would use the same routine of monk with great sword on the first full round attack and use the flashing sun with the second full round attack (totalizing 17 attacks)?

What about question 7: Can I use ascetic mage/carmendine monk/kung fu genius with Swordsage WIS to AC? If I take Unarmed Swordsage adaptation, the WIS to AC stop function when light armor or it still function if I get light armor proficiency from another source?

 

[emoplato]

5. You can combine maneuvers so long as the actions don't overlap. So you can combine a swift action boost with one that requires a full round or a standard action so long as it doesn't change the rules otherwise. The exception to this is the Swordsage's capstone as it allows a second boost to be made as a free action with another boost. That use though isn't acceptable as both Time Stand Still and Flashing Sun use full round actions.
I think you mean Decisive Strike. Yes, this ACF really comes into its own in Tome of Battle as the primary drawback is completely made up by boosts and enhances normally lower damage attacks(TWF iteratives). The Bloodclaw Master infact eliminates off-hand and/or secondary attack and strength penalties.
7. No, because the Swordsage AC is still treated differently and is a separate bonus. You can ask if your DM would houserule a unarmed Swordsage to work, but otherwise no.

 

[Binho]

5. You can combine maneuvers so long as the actions don't overlap. So you can combine a swift action boost with one that requires a full round or a standard action so long as it doesn't change the rules otherwise. The exception to this is the Swordsage's capstone as it allows a second boost to be made as a free action with another boost. That use though isn't acceptable as both Time Stand Still and Flashing Sun use full round actions.
I think you mean Decisive Strike. Yes, this ACF really comes into its own in Tome of Battle as the primary drawback is completely made up by boosts and enhances normally lower damage attacks(TWF iteratives). The Bloodclaw Master infact eliminates off-hand and/or secondary attack and strength penalties.
7. No, because the Swordsage AC is still treated differently and is a separate bonus. You can ask if your DM would houserule a unarmed Swordsage to work, but otherwise no.

Yeh, you're right, I meant Decisive Strike.
About the swordsage wis to AC i didn't understand. If you are pointing that the Swordsage AC is treated differently from Monk's AC, I agree with you. But the feats I linked do not have monk's levels as prerequisites. Ascetic Mage mentions monk as a simple example:

"If you would normally be allowed to add your Wisdom bonus to AC (such as for a unarmored, unencumbered monk), you instead add your Charisma bonus (if any) to your AC."

 

[emoplato]

Yeh, you're right, I meant Decisive Strike.
About the swordsage wis to AC i didn't understand. If you are pointing that the Swordsage AC is treated differently from Monk's AC, I agree with you. But the feats I linked do not have monk's levels as prerequisites. Ascetic Mage mentions monk as a simple example:

"If you would normally be allowed to add your Wisdom bonus to AC (such as for a unarmored, unencumbered monk), you instead add your Charisma bonus (if any) to your AC."

Carmendine Monk requires you to be part of a monk order. It also says monk abilities in the description.
Ascetic Mage needs at least a couple levels of sorcerer and Improved Unarmed Strike, so it is really only worth it if you have a Jade Phoenix Mage in mind in which it is actually better to be one of the other two classes as they shore up needed health. I really don't like this feat as it just trades a dump stat. I would rather have the good wisdom for scouting and will saves as the Swordsage doesn't even get the good charisma based skills saving a feat.
Kung Fu Genius again says monk abilities and even says you must an Int. 13 by or at your first level of monk.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

My I ask, in the face of some very incredible and versatile gestalt builds, Flurry of Blows is the feature you want to design a build around?

In my opinion, it is not a very powerful class feature compared to, lets say, having Cleric and all the things a Cleric can do, on the other side of a Swordsage.

To each their own, but... Flurry of Blows? Really?

 

[Binho]

My I ask, in the face of some very incredible and versatile gestalt builds, Flurry of Blows is the feature you want to design a build around?

In my opinion, it is not a very powerful class feature compared to, lets say, having Cleric and all the things a Cleric can do, on the other side of a Swordsage.

To each their own, but... Flurry of Blows? Really?

Actually, I was not aiming for gestalt. I made questions only to fully understand ToB. I just saw this build and now I'm trying to make it better.

And, come on!!! Maybe Flurry of Bow is not the greatest tactic of the game (nothing of the monk really is), but it has the flavor and is really cool, for example (free to skip until 1:40 minutes of the video first video - maybe the second video can illustrate a flurry better):

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5di-t24sLw&feature=relmfu"]YYH Yusuke Vs Sensui Part 6 (Round 2) 1080p HD - YouTube[/ame] [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7Vh8tVPjHk[/ame]



Extra attacks are always cool. Of course you can do better with TWF, but I just like Flurry. Also, my builds are not designed to be the strongest god, but to make the poor little crap to stand a chance in the cruel D&D world.

Indeed, if I was to play gestalt, I would go for Factotum 20//Cloistered Cleric 1/Warblade 4/Chameleon 10/X5(maybe warblade or any ToB prestige class). Ok, maybe this guy would be better with straight warblade, but i still don't know all that ToB classes can do. So the answer to your question is, in the face of some very incredible and versatile gestalt builds, I would not design my build around Flurry of Bows.

 

[xigbar]

Yes, extra attacks ARE pretty cool, when you're hitting with them. You can't flurry with your fast movement, and they have a need for too many ability scores to have a solid to-hit bonus. The SS maneuvers are not only more effective, but actually look like what people envision Flurry theoretically doing. Additionally, they also have maneuvers that let you make touch attacks, which are further yet more likely to hit. You also will not qualify for JP Mage with Monk, so I don't know how the build will be similar, but certainly not an improvement.

 

[Binho]

Yes, extra attacks ARE pretty cool, when you're hitting with them. You can't flurry with your fast movement, and they have a need for too many ability scores to have a solid to-hit bonus. The SS maneuvers are not only more effective, but actually look like what people envision Flurry theoretically doing. Additionally, they also have maneuvers that let you make touch attacks, which are further yet more likely to hit. You also will not qualify for JP Mage with Monk, so I don't know how the build will be similar, but certainly not an improvement.

That's why I prefer arcane monks. They can cast wraithstrike, fist of stone, mighty wallop, triple strike and a lot of other things. There are a lot of ways to get pounce, so the fast movement would have some use.
About the build I posted, I'm not sure, but trading sorcerer for wizard would be an improvement, because you would end up with more feats (trading script scroll), more skills and you could take carmendine monk feat around lv 3 (instead of weapon finesse). I would use the weapon material that grants weapon finesse to make a monk weapon.
The swordsage and the wizard+monk can qualify to JP Mage since lv 8.
I didn't have time to see the maneuvers yet, so i can't say all this combination could be capable. I'm thinking of one flurry of touch attacks (using enlightened fist's arcane fist to make it free action) with chill touch to activate Stormguard Warrior Combat Rhythm. Nowadays I'm without time, so I won't make it soon...

Farewell