D&D 5E Too many choices? (Options Paralysis)

Oofta

Legend
I would agree with this if classes were primarily designed around mechanics, but they aren't - they're primarily designed around fantasy themes. This makes things a lot more complex.

The truth is this is a very MMO way of looking at class design; it's not that compatible with pnp D&D.

Huh? Different characters built off of the same class with different subclasses will share more rules than characters built from different classes. A class gives you a dozen or more features or updates to class features. A subclass gives you less than half that, and several of those subclass features are essentially cosmetic.
 

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Being bummed out by all the character building roads you can't take at once is what drives one to develop those other eight ideas for characters you really want to play someday, join more groups, play more games, etc. etc. Some level of frustration goes hand in hand with replay-ability and continued engagement.

Personally I think 5e has the level of character build choice that keeps me yearning for more, but other people's mileage will vary.
 

Sure: it'd be undesireable if two or more of the classes in the PH, at, say, 10th level, all found themselves wondering, each round, "hmmm... should I cast one of my several at-will cantrips, or expend one of my 15 spell slots to cast one of the dozen or so spells of up to 5th level that I have available? IDK ... maybe I should just up-cast Hold Person? "

No point adding a Psion that's just gonna do the same thing as the Wizard in that example...

...or is it a Cleric? Bard? Sorcerer?

:🤷:

Really the fact that our mystery mage is evidently finding no use for their bonus action each round screams wizard and perhaps a player who needs to re-evaluate what spells they prepare.
 

Retreater

Legend
I've found the exact opposite as the OP. There are not enough options. Or rather, there aren't enough good options. This is mostly because my character creation style was honed during the eras in which - to survive the game - you had to make the most effective build. I would never play a halfling barbarian or a half-orc bard, for instance. If I'm playing a rogue, the only melee weapon I will take is a rapier. Anything else is a subpar decision, in my opinion.
This binary form of character creation - that there are optimal decisions to make and the others are "trap" choices - really takes fun out of the playing experience. But what else can you do?
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
I would agree with this if classes were primarily designed around mechanics, but they aren't - they're primarily designed around fantasy themes. This makes things a lot more complex.
The truth is this is a very MMO way of looking at class design; it's not that compatible with pnp D&D.
5e classes are very much designed around D&D classes. Exactly none of them are new. When a 'concept first' justification/presentation seems plausible, we get that, when 'mechanical differentiation' fits hearkening to the past better, so be it. The point seems to be exclusively to revisit what we've had before.

That obviously should include psionics. They were one of many quirky things that made classic D&D what it was, and had a real presence in later editions, and in settings like Eberron.

This binary form of character creation - that there are optimal decisions to make and the others are "trap" choices - really takes fun out of the playing experience. But what else can you do?
Play a balanced version of the game?

...

Nah, just mess'n with you.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
I've found the exact opposite as the OP. There are not enough options. Or rather, there aren't enough good options. This is mostly because my character creation style was honed during the eras in which - to survive the game - you had to make the most effective build. I would never play a halfling barbarian or a half-orc bard, for instance. If I'm playing a rogue, the only melee weapon I will take is a rapier. Anything else is a subpar decision, in my opinion.
This binary form of character creation - that there are optimal decisions to make and the others are "trap" choices - really takes fun out of the playing experience. But what else can you do?
What else can you do? Simple.

Stop worrying about optimization.

If you and the rest of the table do that and just play the characters you want to play* without regard for "effectiveness" or "DPR", chances are the DM will soon enough stop worrying about optimizing the encounters against you; leading to more fun and variety all round. :)

* - just for kicks, maybe try a game where everyone randomly rolls the race and class of their PCs, and see how it plays.
 

Retreater

Legend
* - just for kicks, maybe try a game where everyone randomly rolls the race and class of their PCs, and see how it plays.

We did. We played one session of Warhammer Fantasy RPG. I was the GM and not a player. Had I been a player, I'd likely have been frustrated if I rolled a bad character.

The feel of D&D is different from those other games. The focus is effectiveness at your role. Bring in a subpar character, and you're cheating yourself and the other players who depend on you. A Wisdom 12 cleric that can't heal effectively, an Intelligence 10 wizard who can't hit with his scorching ray - those characters are as annoying to me as the jerk player who plays a rogue to steal his party's equipment while they're sleeping.

The most worthless character I've played and worst time I've had in a game in recent memory was a Labyrinth Lord fighter with random stats - average scores from top to bottom. And I think he had 2 hp.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
The feel of D&D is different from those other games. The focus is effectiveness at your role.
Only if you make it so.

If you make the focus into playing the personality and characterization you want to play and let the mechanics look after themselves, then that becomes the focus. (which, apropos to the thread, is easier when there are fewer or even no mechanical choices to be made)

3e, sadly, really put a lot of focus on mechanics and system mastery and character "builds" - far too much, IMO. 5e has, I think, tried to back away from that a little, in that being a little sub-optimal isn't going to ruin anyone's day; but it could still go further.

Bring in a subpar character, and you're cheating yourself and the other players who depend on you. A Wisdom 12 cleric that can't heal effectively, an Intelligence 10 wizard who can't hit with his scorching ray - those characters are as annoying to me as the jerk player who plays a rogue to steal his party's equipment while they're sleeping.
Those are far more extreme examples than a Rogue using a rapier all the time rather than a shortsword or cosh or missile weapon just because the rapier is (in theory) marginally more optimal. It's the difference between being good enough - which is always good enough - and being perfect, which is IMO rather boring.

If you're playing the character you want to play, warts and all, then you're not cheating yourself in any way. If your character can more or less carry its weight within the party and co-operates most of the time then you're not cheating anyone else either.

That said, if your DM is the sort that has every encounter push you to the absolute limits and in effect demands that you keep up with the arms race then that's a different issue.
 

Ashrym

Legend
In behavioral economics, this is known as the paradox of choice (also referred to as overchoice or choice overload). One famous experiment* shows that when people have fewer choices of jam at the supermarket, they were more likely to buy jam.

In other words, while we always think we crave more choice, more choice is not, in fact, always helpful to most people, and can result in anxiety, choice paralysis, and an overall lowering of "happiness" and "utility."

It models my behavior with RPG's. I would stop buying splat books because I already had enough options, and when I look at a new system I'm more likely to duck if it's throwing the kitchen sink at me than want that kitchen sink too.

Too few options is not my thing, but far too many can definitely stop me from even looking.

Did enough people giving feedback in the play test appear to have wanted this option? not sure how much the feedback impacted the game since I wasn’t keeping up with D&D Next at the time. I’m not a fan of the ala carte dip here and than style either due to 3x burn out...still 12 years later.

I vaguely remember WotC sneaking in variety in the caster progression tables that I assume the reason could have been related to multi-classing but not a lot compared to the focus on the classes.

I prefer multi-classing feats, personally. I'm not a fan of open multi-classing but at least the ability score prereq's give some additional consideration.

I've found the exact opposite as the OP. There are not enough options. Or rather, there aren't enough good options. This is mostly because my character creation style was honed during the eras in which - to survive the game - you had to make the most effective build. I would never play a halfling barbarian or a half-orc bard, for instance. If I'm playing a rogue, the only melee weapon I will take is a rapier. Anything else is a subpar decision, in my opinion.
This binary form of character creation - that there are optimal decisions to make and the others are "trap" choices - really takes fun out of the playing experience. But what else can you do?

"Trap" is an over-used term. If someone made a better option than a rapier then the rapier would become the "trap". If someone makes an option exactly the same then the option is meaningless. If someone makes the option different then it's hard to measure and people will still give subjective opinions on what's better.

I also rarely take a rapier over dual short swords and a light crossbow.

I would make a halfling barbarian. He would be stout subrace and from Talenta. He would ride a dinosaur too. Taking that halfling gives me racial benefits I can use. +2 DEX fits nicely with medium armor, +1 CON is find, and lucky is a useful ability. The STR will still cap out over time.

I would also and have made half-orc bards. STR and CON is useful for valor bard who melees. Cleric too. CHA and WIS and can still be focused on and cap out but low slots, weak DC's, and limited benefit depending on spell selection makes the lower starting score minor compared to better combat scores used more often.

We did. We played one session of Warhammer Fantasy RPG. I was the GM and not a player. Had I been a player, I'd likely have been frustrated if I rolled a bad character.

The feel of D&D is different from those other games. The focus is effectiveness at your role. Bring in a subpar character, and you're cheating yourself and the other players who depend on you. A Wisdom 12 cleric that can't heal effectively, an Intelligence 10 wizard who can't hit with his scorching ray - those characters are as annoying to me as the jerk player who plays a rogue to steal his party's equipment while they're sleeping.

The most worthless character I've played and worst time I've had in a game in recent memory was a Labyrinth Lord fighter with random stats - average scores from top to bottom. And I think he had 2 hp.

What makes you think a WIS 12 cleric cannot heal effectively? The difference between WIS 12 and WIS 16 is 2hp of healing on a spell. A first level spell from a life cleric heals an additional 3hp. Based on that, all clerics cannot heal effectively unless they are life clerics, or a life cleric with 12 WIS heals more effectively than a non-life cleric with a 16 WIS.

The higher the level of the party, the less those few hit points are missed, and not all healing spells apply WIS modifier.

INT 10 wizards seems like you've moved the goalposts even further, but they can focus on buffs and uses spells that don't have saves or attack rolls. Your hypothetical 10 INT wizard would just use magic missile or sleep instead of scorching ray.

Perhaps seeing how a player makes effective use of oddball characters would be better than simply assuming they don't meet your personal standard. ;)
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
"Trap" is an over-used term.
Maybe if there were fewer traps (even if there were correspondingly more clearly-marked hazards*) we'd see the term less?


* oh, that was a different thread: someone made a comment about something being "explicitly a trap" and I got all pedantic and pointed out if it were explicit, it wouldn't be a /trap/, but a clearly-marked hazard, like with caution tape and warning signs.
 
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