Too powerful? What am I missing... (please help)

[Enforcer]

Ha! That's excellent. How's that show-tune go? Anything psionics can do, arcane spells do better?

 

[Slaved]

The average touch AC in the MM is less than 11.

From what Nail was saying this is not true. Plus, that number did not take into account spells or spell like abilities if I remember correctly.

You picked the lowest level Wilder class who averages the least relative damage and then picked a powerful opponent for him with twice as many hit dice, with Str, Dex, and Con 15 and a high (for the wilder's level and higher than average in the MM) touch AC opponent.

I am sorry that you feel my monster was an inappropriate choice. I was merely using it as an example of a creature of the same challenge rating that did not have class levels plus used d8 for hit dice. Plus it is available as an option for a first level character to have. What other example would you propose instead?

Go to 10th level when the Wilder hits most touch ACs 95% of the time.

That is fair. At 11th level a character with full base attack bonus will have 3 attacks on a full attack and I would assume that his average damage on a full attack is greater than the average damage of the wilders energy ray.

I would expect a 10th level wilder who is focusing on the ray attack to have at least a 20 dexterity by now and his class will give him a base attack bonus of +7.

Or examine 6th level or higher when he takes Energy Missile with a feat and is picking and choosing which opponents to hit with Empowered Energy Missile, killing some, seriously wounding some, and significantly wounding the rest.

This looks like 1 feat for energy missile, 1 feat for empower, and likely 1 feat for psionic meditation. For a nonhuman wilder this is all of the feats that they have available to use and that wilder needs to have a good charisma and at least a 13 wisdom. If he had a good dexterity to make the best use of his rays earlier as well then either we are talking about a very high point buy or some other statistics that are very low.

This is not assumed. We are talking standard damage potential here.

Damage potential must take into account the targets chance to take damage. Since I was talking about the actual amount likely to be delivered to the target by energy ray miss chance must certainly be taken into account.

I believe that fire and cold are also the most common of the energy resistances so that will likely play a factor as well.

And if you go to the recent Orb threads, you can find out that even at low levels, a caster with a ranged touch attack can have a very high percentage of hitting (80%+). A wilder has a higher chance. Without any magic or any feats or special abilities or anything else, a Halfling Wilder with Dex 16 (very common for halfling PCs) has a 85% chance of hitting touch AC 11 at 4th level. No feats. No magic. Just an appropriate race. It's not hard to get this up to 95%, even at 4th level.

By 10th level with magic and feats, he is hitting the 93% of all creatures with touch AC 14 or less in the MM (and probably a similar percentage of classed opponents) 95% of the time.

I am guessing that this character will not be getting energy missile. It would be helpful if we could stick to one thing instead of jumping around.

Yes, it is possible to have a good chance to hit, I have not denied that. I am trying to take into account how much damage is likely to be done on average however and how it compares to what others can do.

I think you are ignoring the math.

I am actually paying attention to the math that you are presenting but I do not feel that it is the whole story. It does not talk about what others are capable of nor does it take into account how very specialized the wilder is.

If the damage compares well with other builds who focus and specialize on damage then the problem, if there is a problem, is far reaching. If the damage the wilder does is out of line then there will be something to talk about.


I have to say though that each class gets its extra abilities at different times. If the wilder is ahead on damage at one level while behind at another that does not mean it is overpowered at one and underpowered at the other. At least I do not think it means that, others may disagree.

The only downside the Wilder has is that he is a one trick pony that can quickly run out of shots.

This certainly seems important to me. At level 3 the wilder knows 2 powers and they are both first level but he can use them very well. Are they used too well? Your math so far does not say either way. It is currently insufficient.

 

[Slaved]

Ha! That's excellent. How's that show-tune go? Anything psionics can do, arcane spells do better?

If you go to enough sources this seems to be very true.

I wonder though, each brand of magic has its own area that it excels in, what is the wilders and psions area?

 

[Enforcer]

Psions excel at mental magic and defenses, certainly. Wilders excel at blasting ('til they run out of ammo), while psions excel at their discipline areas (travel powers for nomads, mental dominance for telepaths, blasting again for kineticists, etc.).

Also they don't have to deal with yucky Vancian slots. Man do I hope Vance gets removed in 4e.

Seriously though, while there are many overlaps between the wizard and psion spell/power lists (something that annoys me, frankly), each has a lot of unique shticks or at least shticks that work differently. Check out the discipline-specific lists for examples.

 

[Slaved]

Psions excel at mental magic and defenses, certainly.

Better than protection from evil/good/law/chaos? The wizards mind blank comes one level later but it can be placed onto anyone who needs it so that seems pretty even.

What mental magic and defense does the psion have over the wizard and cleric?

Wilders excel at blasting ('til they run out of ammo), while psions excel at their discipline areas (travel powers for nomads, mental dominance for telepaths, blasting again for kineticists, etc.).

Ok. Better at blasting. I guess that is mostly because of the ability to change energy types though.

If I remember correctly most of the other discipline stuff happens about the same level or later than the wizard and cleric versions anyway.

Also they don't have to deal with yucky Vancian slots. Man do I hope Vance gets removed in 4e.

I do not like them either but this seems somewhat even as well. The casters get lots of slots while the psion and wilder have more freedom about what to use.

Seriously though, while there are many overlaps between the wizard and psion spell/power lists (something that annoys me, frankly), each has a lot of unique shticks or at least shticks that work differently. Check out the discipline-specific lists for examples.

There is a lot of overlap. It looks like the only area that wilders and psions actually do better than the others though is in blasting. That seems wrong somehow.

 

[Enforcer]

Psions have various immediate powers like Tower of Iron Will that Wizards don't have access to, and offenses like Crisis of Breath or Astral Construct that are pretty different as well.

They also get some powers sooner or better than Wizards (though these are invariably discipline-specific). The Telepath's charm, suggestion, and dominate are all better than the Wizard's for example (due to augment possibilities). Shrug, I really don't see one as better than the other from a core rulebook standpoint, it's when the Wizards get access to a million new spells that they really pull ahead of the psions.

 

[Slaved]

I guess tower of iron will is ok, I do not really like it though. Crisis of breath I have no care for either for that matter. Neither of these does very much in my opinion. Crisis of breath is not even a real save or die, it is more like phantasmal killers sickly cousin.

Clerics are very good at healing and effects that work on dead or undead creatures.
Wizards are very good at illusions, party buffing, and disruption tactics.
Psions are good at blasting?

I am not talking about which is better overall, just looking at what each different school of magical abilities is good at.

 

[Destil]

A few points:

Sorcerer is the weakest base spellcasting class. Comparing them to Psions (the strongest psionic caster class) is a bit unfair.

Schism is actually necessary to compete with wizards who want to nova. A wizard can prepair a good number of decent quickened spells. A psion can only quicken their first spell without psi meditation. Even with it, a wizard gets full caster level on their quickened spells. A psion must pay for most benefits from caster level with PP, and thus the cost of quicken and the bottleneck reduces the damage potential quite a (because they can't augment as much). Schisim also has a -6 manifester level for all results. Not just the bottleneck, so good luck overcoming SR / PR with those extra powers (remember, a wizard just needs to take Spell Penetration, while the psion needs to spend focus to use it).

Finally, wizards and sorcerers are bad at dealing raw damage in 3.x. 3E added con bonuses to monsters, but wizard spells were not improved in damage. Psions, however, are most likely about right in terms of raw damage. Wizards and sorcerers excel at other things. With the example listed against anything except a dragon I'd rather have one glitterdust and one scorching ray 99% of the time as a wizard.

 

[IcyCool]

Ha! That's excellent. How's that show-tune go? Anything psionics can do, arcane spells do better?

If you are referring to how the Wild Mage boosts interacts with Practiced Spellcaster, I believe that issue is still hotly debated. For what it's worth, I think the FAQ clarified that this little "rules trick" doesn't work. I know I certainly wouldn't allow it in any game I ran.

 

[KarinsDad]

From what Nail was saying this is not true. Plus, that number did not take into account spells or spell like abilities if I remember correctly.

Nail said 12. When I illustrated that as incorrect, he found an error and corrected it. He now says 11. I think this is still incorrect and it is really closer to 10.5 than 11, but have not yet had a chance to go back and prove it.

Nevertheless, even using Nail's 11 average touch AC, your example of 12 is a bit high for a first level comparison considering that it is higher than average for the MM.

I am sorry that you feel my monster was an inappropriate choice. I was merely using it as an example of a creature of the same challenge rating that did not have class levels plus used d8 for hit dice. Plus it is available as an option for a first level character to have. What other example would you propose instead?

I do not need to propose another creature. That one is fine. If the Wilder hits, he'll average 69% of the creatures hit points in a single shot. This conversation started with me stating that the Wilder will often do 70% or more damage to an opponent and you questioned that figure. You then backed up that figure with your example.

You have yet to illustrate that the 70% figure is way off.

That is fair. At 11th level a character with full base attack bonus will have 3 attacks on a full attack and I would assume that his average damage on a full attack is greater than the average damage of the wilders energy ray.

Greater? That would be a poor assumption.

The Wilder is often hitting 95% of the time at that level. Even if the full BAB PC hits 95% of the time with his first attack, he is hitting 70% of the time with his second and 45% of the time with his third.

As an example, let's take a tricked out Raging Half Orc Barbarian at 11th level with starting Str 20 (now 22), Weapon Focus, +4 Belt of Giant Strength (16,000 GP) and a +2 Flaming Greatsword (18,000 GP) or more than half his money on two offensive items. His to hit would be +22. He hits AC 26 95% of the time. AC 26 is reasonable at 11th level, but is not especially high.

Assuming his opponents do not have a higher AC or miss chances or Fire Resistance or are flying, he averages (95% + 70% + 45%) * 1.10 (critical) * (2D6 + 15Str + D6 flaming) = 58.9 average points of damage.

With a 14 Dex and no magic and no feats, the 11th level Wilder hits touch AC 11 95% of the time. Presumably, he would have magic items and feats and special abiliites to help him out more (for example, Surging Euphoria adds +1 to hit on a successful surge), just like the Barbarian. So, he averages (95%) * 1.05 (critical) * (15D6+15 +1 Surging Euphoria) = 68.3 average points of damage.

The moment the Wilder adds Empower (one feat) to the list, the damage jumps. Even without taking Psychic Meditation, that's a typically once per combat average of: (95%) * 1.05 (critical) * (13D6+13 +1 Surging Euphoria) * 1.5 = 89.25 average points of damage.

The Barbarian can only full round attack sometimes. The first round is often one where he cannot until he gets within close melee range. The Wilder can often blast away in round one.

The Barbarian here might not be the most potent combatant type build (a tripper could probably do more damage), but it is not a wimpy one either and the Wilder still averages more damage.

This looks like 1 feat for energy missile, 1 feat for empower, and likely 1 feat for psionic meditation. For a nonhuman wilder this is all of the feats that they have available to use and that wilder needs to have a good charisma and at least a 13 wisdom. If he had a good dexterity to make the best use of his rays earlier as well then either we are talking about a very high point buy or some other statistics that are very low.

He doesn't need 3 feats. 2 feats is enough: Energy Missile and Empower. 3 feats is gravy.

Say 6 NPCs of which he is able to target 4. At 10th level, 1 NPC takes full damage, 2 NPCs take half damage, and 1 NPC is totally protected (for some unknown reason such as Evasion or Energy Resistance or Spell Resistance). This is a fairly common scenario and results against multiple opponents.

The NPCs have 70 hit points each (7 hit point average which is reasonable) or 420 hit points. There is no to hit roll. The Wilder does 13D6+14 (SE) or 119 hit points total. In round one, he has damaged the opposition (of 6 opponents) by 28%. In one round. He has done his fair share of the entire combat already. Granted, the NPCs can heal themselves (if they have that ability) or whatever. But in one round, the Wilder has done more than the 25% damage as a member of the party that he is responsible for. Future rounds are gravy. Additional damage is gravy and saving party resources. Enervation for a single round is irrelevant because he has already succeeded in his goal.

The same level 10th level Raging Barbarian with a full round attack and lucky to hit twice does 40+ points of damage or about 10% (again, if he is lucky enough to both get a full round attack in and to hit both times). The 11th level Raging Barbarian getting lucky with all 3 attacks hitting does 70 points or 17% and might take out a single opponent. A level higher plus luck and he might do slightly more than half the damage the Wilder did.

Damage potential must take into account the targets chance to take damage. Since I was talking about the actual amount likely to be delivered to the target by energy ray miss chance must certainly be taken into account.

Funny, but you did not do that when you were talking about the Barbarian's or the Rogue's damage.

But, no worries. The well designed Wilder is designed to have a good to hit. He might take feats to help (such as Point Blank Range and Precise Shot, both of which he can get if he is human at first level).

For ranged touch attacks, the to hit quickly becomes a non-issue for a Wilder.

I believe that fire and cold are also the most common of the energy resistances so that will likely play a factor as well.

But not at the same time. Very few creatures have immunity / resistance to both.

And many creatures that have resistance to one or the other also have Damage Reduction, so the Wilder tends to hold his own as well as the Barbarian here (in fact, DR 10 on 3 attacks stops more damage than ER 10 or even ER 20 on one attack).

And many of the creatures that have immunity to fire or cold take double damage from the other.

No doubt. It is a factor. But, less so than DR typically is.

I am guessing that this character will not be getting energy missile. It would be helpful if we could stick to one thing instead of jumping around.

Why would a Wilder cripple himself by not taking good options? That doesn't make sense.

If he is a one trick pony, he had best be the best one trick pony around because he only gets a few opportunities to shine.


Btw, I screwed up my 3rd level chart on the first page. I forgot that the Wilder does not pay extra PP for surging (unless he enervates), so typically a 3rd level Wilder can typically go full bore surge 4 or 5 times per day, not 3. At higher levels, he can do it more often.

Yes, it is possible to have a good chance to hit, I have not denied that. I am trying to take into account how much damage is likely to be done on average however and how it compares to what others can do.

If you do this, do this across the board. Every level, not just first. Single attacks and full round attacks, not just full round attacks. Average ACs, not slightly higher ones. Average hit points, not slightly higher ones.