Too powerful? What am I missing... (please help)

[KarinsDad]

A few points:

Sorcerer is the weakest base spellcasting class. Comparing them to Psions (the strongest psionic caster class) is a bit unfair.

This is false.

Sorcerers are the strongest base spellcasting class (spontaneous metamagic puts them over the top) once they get past level 3.

They are also the best comparison base class against Psions since both classes have spontaneous abilities. Comparing non-spontaneous casters with spontaneous manifesters is nearly impossible. It is two different niches being filled.

Sorcerers have the least spells known (i.e. a form of utility) of the base spellcasting classes, but that does not mean they are not powerful. They are very powerful. Even on the odd levels when they cannot yet cast the next higher level spell, they have spells to burn and metamagic ones at that.

Wizards and Divine base casters often have prepared spells which are not applicable to the situation. In a way, that actually gives these casters less utility rather than more. The real utility advantage they have is when they know ahead of time exactly (or even generally) what they need to prepare for. Sure, they might be more capable in those situations than a Sorcerer, but they are often less capable in surprise situations (which many challenging situations should be in a game).

 

[KarinsDad]

The concentration skill says that you are wrong.

I miswrote. I meant entangled, not grappled.

Entangling does not require a concentration roll for Psions.

And grappled totally prevents somatic spells (the vast majority) completely for casters whereas Psions can manifest any of their powers if they make the Concentration check.

 

[Slaved]

I miswrote. I meant entangled, not grappled.

Entangling does not require a concentration roll for Psions.

Concentration still disagrees with you.

I will get to the rest of your points later.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Remember that energy ray has a range of 25 ft + 5 ft/2 levels. So a 3rd level wilder would at best have a range of 45 ft.

Rays are also subject to the penalty for shooting into melee, soft cover and the like.

Keep track of these limits they are extremely important.

Good point. If the target is within 45 ft, you are only likely to get a shot against the target while it is out of melee for 1 or fewer rounds. -4 for firing the ray into melee is bad. -8 for firing the ray into melee through cover is ugly.

 

[Unkabear]

I'm no expert, but from comments I've seen written over and over again about psionics based balsters, they can really dish out a lot of damage for one, or maybe two, encounters. But then their PPs are burnt up. Sorcerors and Warlocks just go all day.

So, if you game has only a small number of encounters per day, then psionics-based characters should dominate. But if you have multiple encounters, then they have to be sparing with their PPs.

If he tends to dominate all of the battles, then you will have to begin upping the number of battles before the party can rest. A Psion with no PP will only have an interesting battle as he runs from opponents. Even if you do not have multiple battles every day if there is the possibility then he will be more frugal with his Power Points and thus not over power everyone.

 

[KarinsDad]

Schism is actually necessary to compete with wizards who want to nova. A wizard can prepair a good number of decent quickened spells. A psion can only quicken their first spell without psi meditation. Even with it, a wizard gets full caster level on their quickened spells. A psion must pay for most benefits from caster level with PP, and thus the cost of quicken and the bottleneck reduces the damage potential quite a (because they can't augment as much). Schisim also has a -6 manifester level for all results. Not just the bottleneck, so good luck overcoming SR / PR with those extra powers (remember, a wizard just needs to take Spell Penetration, while the psion needs to spend focus to use it).

I agree with you that for the short term (i.e. as long as they do not run out of Quickened spells), higher level Wizards can Nova slightly better than Psions.

But, it is not a large advantage and it cannot be done without having a bunch of Quickened spells prepared. An Empowered Scorching Ray and a Quickened Scorching Ray at 11th level is a 4th and a 6th level spell for 100 points of damage. An Empowered Energy Ray and a Schismed Energy Ray at 11th level is 83 points of damage for 23 PP. Each consecutive round is another 83 points of damge for 16 more PP. An Empowered Overchanneled Energy Ray and a Schismed Overchanneled Energy Ray at 11th level is 106 points of damage for 28 PP.

The Wizard used up his 6th level spell. How many consecutive rounds does he have left to Nova as strong as he did the first time? The Psion has 6 more such Nova rounds.


I also do not think Wizards can survive as easily at lower levels in order to get to higher level where they can out Nova. Psions just have too many defensive options. And they have spontaneous options as opposed to prepared ones.


Schism isn't often used by Psions to Nova. It is used for defense and miscellaneous manifesting. For example, using Vigor to set up Overchannel on Novas (or setting up a Vigor any time the previous one goes down or mostly down). Or in Eberron, the Warforged Psion using Share Pain (typically before combat) to share damage with a Psicrystal and then using a Shared Psionic Repair Damage to heal both simultaneously. Or putting up any defensive power appropriate to the situation or throwing a little extra offensive power at an opponent.

But the advantage of Schism is that it does provide minor Quickened powers at a reduced cost so that a Psion can pick and choose to do the equivalent of a minor Energy Ray at NPC #3 because the Barbarian has wounded him so much already that a full blown one is not necessary or put up an AC boosting power or whatever he needs. The Wizard does not have this option. If he did not Quicken Mirror Image, he is stuck either casting (or reading from a scroll) a normal Mirror Image or not having it up at all.


To Nova, a Psion uses Overchannel and Empower. Or Overchannel and Split Ray. Yes, a Psion needs Psionic Meditation to do this more than once per combat. But, a Psion does not need Schism to Nova. Schism is used to just flat out pump two powers out each round. One greater, one lesser. And most combats, that is not even needed. It is needed for the challenging combats, not the mook ones.

Wizards have this option if they take the Quickened Spell feat (shy of a metamagic rod) and if they Quickened the proper spells, but it is more costly for them than Psions. Their Quickened slots are slots not being used for something else. Psions can choose not to Quicken or not to Schism. Nova is not required, even for a Nova specialist.

 

[KarinsDad]

Concentration still disagrees with you.

I will get to the rest of your points later.

You're right. I never noticed that. Strange.

But, there is still the grapple preventing somatic components issue.

 

[wildstarsreach]

I feel like I must be missing something in the rules.

Here's the background:
I don't know psionics.
I DM for a group of fairly experienced players.
Two of them like psionics.


When I had seen them used in play once before I figured they were mostly personal augmentation spells with very limited offensive ability (because this is how I had seen them played in other games before). So, when one of my players really wanted to add psionics into the game, I trusted his decision and okayed it (I know now I should've said no, but like I said, I trusted the player...). Figuring it be like having a sorcerer in the party.

Now I've seen it. uggg


A 3rd level wilder launched a 5d6 energy ray as a ranged touch spell with no save and there's no damage cap.

A 3rd level wizard can do 4d6 with a scorching Ray. Is the so over powering and can be done just a few times a day. A duskblade at 3rd level can do 3d6 with blade of blood for 5 hp damage to the caster and 3d6 shocking grasp and weapon damage. Also the wilder has a very limited set of powers compared to a psion. He can do that 5d6 3 times a day at that level and a 4d6 once more then he is out of PPs except for high charisma, at 18, he could do it 2 more times.

This character now far outstrips the other casters in the group.
What am I missing?...

One trick pony unless he is conservative and does this only once or twice an encounter.

Not to start a rant here, but are psionics really that over-powered?

No but they are strong. They can go nove like no other class easily.

Should they just NOT be paired with arcane and divine spellcasters?

Apples and oranges, Sorcerers can relearn spells, Clerics and wizards have a wide range of spells to work from.

Are there ways to tone them down to make them more reasonable?

There are things that you can do but overall, they are equitable to a wizard/sorcerer/cleric. They will not win in every situation.

Are there things in the Rulebooks that I can use to bring the power level down?

At 3rd level they can in a one encounter be overpowering. For the 3-5 encounter expectation they will shine slightly more than many classes.

Are there things about the Wilder that I am missing (errata maybe?)...
-But if a wilder can surge virtually every round, with only a small percentage chance of being dazed next round... there doesn't seem to be any down side and he effectively becomes a 5th level caster in a party of 3rd level characters fighting 3rd level encounters... Agh! I feel like this completely openned a can of worms that I like to slam shut --- but I don't want to just say "tough luck" to my player.

Again for very few encounters.

(perhaps making arcane spell failure apply to psionics...)
(perhaps other limiting factors...)

Why, not the same thing. Look at the wide availability of effects and spells available to other classes.

**Also is wild surge rolled for BEFORE The completion of the spell or after?

So does this "manifesting" mean when the power BEGINS or when the power EFFECTS come into being. My understanding is that it would be when the EFFECTS come into play (in the same way a summoner need not make all the choices of his summoned spell until after the spell is finished casting...), but if it were when the power BEGINS to be "cast" it would at least be a balancing factor for the wilder...

It's okay, my group has the same misconceptions. My DM and I do go over it and we realize where the problems are. That doesn't mean that it is weak or strong just very focused.

 

[Drowbane]

I thought I'd been told that the Astral Construct nerf was.....a bit silly. Something like "only one construct active at a time....do I have that right?

Yes.

My group ignores that silly bit of errata.

 

[Slaved]

Nail said 12. When I illustrated that as incorrect, he found an error and corrected it. He now says 11.

Templates have been left out last I heard. That will change the average plus spells, spell-like, and other abilities were not accounted for.

It also does not account for miss chance but I doubt that would show much to the average.

I do not need to propose another creature. That one is fine. If the Wilder hits, he'll average 69% of the creatures hit points in a single shot. This conversation started with me stating that the Wilder will often do 70% or more damage to an opponent and you questioned that figure. You then backed up that figure with your example.

You have yet to illustrate that the 70% figure is way off.

Since it takes an average of 3 shots from the wilder to kill the creature the 70% is indeed off. As I showed in my example.

If you assume that you hit then it is about 70% but that is a poor assumption.

We could also assume that every creature fails its saving throw or that spell resistance is always bypassed, but those would also be poor assumptions.

Greater? That would be a poor assumption.

Fighter 11
Greatsword +2 (8kgp)
Boots of speed (12kgp)
Belt of giant strength +4 (16kgp)
Weapon focus, weapon specialization

Start with a 16 strength, +2 from levels, +4 from belt = 22 (+6)

Activate boots of speed.
To hit: +21 = +11 base attack bonus, +2 sword, +1 weapon focus, +6 strength, +1 haste

Damage: 2d6 +9 from strength, +2 from weapon, +2 weapon specialization = average of 20

Full attack: +21/+21/+16/+11

Attacking against an armor class of 30 gives 60%, 60%, 35%, 10% = 1.65

This gives 33 damage on a full attack on average. Factoring in criticals moves this up to 36.3.

Attacking against an armor class of 25 gives 85%, 85%, 60%, 35% = 2.65

This gives 53 damage on a full attack on average. Factoring in criticals moves this up to 58.3.

Attacking against an armor class of 20 gives 95%, 95%, 85%, 60% = 3.35

This gives 67 damage on a full attack on average. Factoring in criticals moves this up to 73.7.

The fighter still has 30kgp to spend and has 8 feats to spend as well.

If we factor in improved critical these numbers change to 39.6, 63.6, 80.4 respectively. If he had a +3 weapon they would change to 47.7, 65.8, 79.7. If he has both then 52, 71.8, 86.9. If he had started with an 18 strength instead of a 16 strength we would get the same results as with the +3 weapon, if we also added in the +3 weapon we would get 49.6, 73.8, 85.9.

If I go into the players handbook 2 these numbers will certainly increase even further. Power attack will allow some customizability there that if a character was so inclined he could maximize his damage out put for the average.

With a 14 Dex and no magic and no feats, the 11th level Wilder hits touch AC 11 95% of the time. Presumably, he would have magic items and feats and special abiliites to help him out more (for example, Surging Euphoria adds +1 to hit on a successful surge), just like the Barbarian. So, he averages (95%) * 1.05 (critical) * (15D6+15 +1 Surging Euphoria) = 68.3 average points of damage.

So if you added in a +4 dexterity item then he could hit a touch armor class of 15 95% of the time assuming that surging euphorias bonus is added on immediately. Very nice!

68.3 average damage is pretty good. The base fighter above with the 20 average damage and only two feats beats that against anything with an armor class of 22 or less and gets lower on armor class 23 or greater. The fighter with 18 strength, a +3 weapon, and improved critical beats it for armor classes of 27 and lower.

The moment the Wilder adds Empower (one feat) to the list, the damage jumps. Even without taking Psychic Meditation, that's a typically once per combat average of: (95%) * 1.05 (critical) * (13D6+13 +1 Surging Euphoria) * 1.5 = 89.25 average points of damage.

I am not going to let you multiply the extra damage from euphoria.

95%x1.05x{1+[13d6+13]x1.5} = 88.5

Sadly it takes the strength 18, +3 sword, improved critical fighter to hit this point reliably. He then beats the average damage for armor class 24 and down.

So the fighter can hit this vaunted number as well on these full attacks. The boots of speed last for 10 rounds per day but the wilder is most likely not getting 10 rounds of his big blast in a given day.

Say 6 NPCs of which he is able to target 4.

Right. Nonplayer characters of this level love to stand practically on top of one another. That is how they got to be this level after all.

Still, casters and manifesters are definately better at damage to multiple foes at once.

Funny, but you did not do that when you were talking about the Barbarian's or the Rogue's damage.

There goes my trying to be nice and comparing numbers. That will teach me.

But not at the same time. Very few creatures have immunity / resistance to both.

Interestingly the wilder does not have the appropriate knowledge skills to be able to know. Someone else in the party might be able to tell them but then someone else in the party might have been able to boost the fighters weapon in the scenario presented above.

Why would a Wilder cripple himself by not taking good options?

The wilder is already crippled by his lack of choices and few feats to spend. Spending a feat to pick up yet another attack power is probably not the best move. Especially if he was already focused on dealing damage with rays.

A given character only has so many options. That level 11 wilder mentioned earlier only knows 6 powers. 2 first, 1 second, 1 third, 1 fourth, and 1 fifth. Spending a feat to get energy missile is an option but then so are a lot of other powers or many other things.

If you do this, do this across the board. Every level, not just first. Single attacks and full round attacks, not just full round attacks. Average ACs, not slightly higher ones. Average hit points, not slightly higher ones.

There is also the issue of how many and how often turns are spent doing nothing. Plus the wilder might want to actually use some other powers such as defensive or utility effects.

Rationing is the name of the game and the wilder must practice it. Especially later on with larger surges which can easily remove large portions of his time in combat along with his power point reserve.