Too powerful? What am I missing... (please help)

[KarinsDad]

The Wilder can use energy ray 1 time before his opponet is on him. Don't forget teh range of the power. If he uses a metapsionic feat he needs at least a move action to regain his focus. So the melee combatant will be on the wilder after 1 shot (let's assume he has taken 70% of his damage from that attack). The melee combatant (who probably has a higher AC and hit point total than does the wilder) is now dealing damage. Assume 1st round he is only making a single attack because he had to move to reach his target so he is only dealing a limited amount of damage (to a target who can take less damage than he could, usually).

Now the wilder can either manifest on the defensive or take a 5 ft step and manifest (and hope that the melee combatant doesn't have reach - or else pretty much he is in real trouble).

How is that different than a Sorcerer or Wizard with the exception that the Wilder tends to have better hit points and tends to have done more damage in round one to the opponent?

And the Wilder does not necessarily need to regain or even use his focus every single round. Surge blast, do 70+% damage, move away. Unless his opponent has a straight line and can charge him, or has an extremely high Speed, the Wilder just normal blasts again (without metamagic and without surge) and does 40+% damage on the next round. An extremely tough opponent (combatant type 2+ levels higher), he might be doing 50+% and 30+% (oh well, he didn't wipe out the opponent with two shots, but he did contribute).

Granted, the Wilder might be dazed if he surges. Stuff happens. But even then, it does not mean that the melee attacker will necessarily knock the Wilder out on his very next turn except possibly at real low levels.

But, one would expect Wilders to be played intelligently just like Sorcerers and Wizards. Hang behind the tanks and force opponents to move through the front line to get to him. And one expects tanks to be played intelligently as well. A plan to take appropriate 5 foot steps so that opponents are no longer in melee with the tanks takes away the -4 for ranged attacks in melee penalty.

Players are not forced to play stupid and just stand there and get attacked. There are a lot of options available.

This "opponents will be on top of the Wilder in one round" argument is not very persuasive. It might rarely happen, but if it is happening to the Wilders because the DM decides to "run his game accordingly" (as per your quote below), it should be happening to the Sorcerers and Wizards as well.

As I have pointed out repeatedly range is extremely important when considering the "power" of a psionic character. The ranges are almost always short or medium. An archer will pretty much put a serious hurt on the psionic character early on before he can effectively deal his damage.

While this is true (80% of psionic powers in the XPH are range Close or closer) and is a factor of psionic characters, it is not decisive.

A well designed psionic character should have at least one long range attack. A poorly designed one does not.

Even at low level without a long range attack, the psionic character should still rarely be in wide open areas where bowmen attack from 1000+ feet away. Even in Kansas, nature doesn't typically work that way. There are usually ravines or bushes or trees or other structures to get cover behind.

And this also does not limit the psionic character from having good defensive powers either.

So your example here is exaggerated. A bowman might have a single round of attacks before the psionic character can respond, but it typically is not "a serious hurt". Even if the bowman is out of range, there is often other things that can be accomplished by the psionic character (like taking out closer opponents to free up other PCs to deal with the bowman, or taking cover, or whatever). It's usually not just a single bowman from 300 feet away with no cover and no other PCs to help the psionic PC.

I don't think psionics are "overpowered" they just require the DM to realize how they work and to run his game accordingly - just like he would have to run his game a certain way if the party was predominantly ranged attackers or melee attackers, etc.

Psionics have their own set of weaknesses and these must be understood in order to effectely run a game.

Range is a bit of a weakness. Mostly self only buffs is a bit of a weakness. At high level, single metamagic is a bit of a weakness.

But, these are not extreme weaknesses. Psionic PCs can easily overcome them. And, these are not weaknesses where the DM can "run his game accordingly" unless he is just plain out to get the psionic PC. Having a dozen bowman attack from 200 feet away every third battle is just being a rat bastard DM and is not addressing the issue.

When compared to psionic strengths, these so called weaknesses are pretty minor. Right off the bat, psionic blasters (even if they are not Wilders or Kineticists) are 28% stronger than Evokers. By third level, psionic Egoists have better ACs than Abjurers, etc. Due to augmentation and some other factors, certain synergies of psionic powers, feats, and special abilities can be quite potent. We do not really see that level of potency for arcane and divine spell casters unless one gets out of the core books.

The balancing factor is how often per day these potent abilities can be used, the fact that many of them are Close range, and that the psionic PC tends to only buff his own capabilities. He is not a party buffer.

When comparing a Psion to a Sorcerer (or Wizard for that matter), it is like comparing a Warblade to a Fighter. Not overwhelmingly more potent, but solidly and noticably more potent. The increase in power curve once one gets out of core is also very noticable.

It's also very interesting too that the Wilder is being compared to a Barbarian for damage dealing, not a Wizard or Sorcerer. At low levels, nobody says "My 1st level Evoker kicks butt". But, they can say "My 1st level Wilder kicks butt".

At 1st level, Surged Energy Ray does about 2/3rds the average damage (9 points) and same range (30 feet) as what the 3rd level Evoker does with the second level spell Scorching Ray (the best damage dealing low level ray spell in core, 14 points / 30 feet) and the 1st level Wilder can do it 3 to 6 times per day (stat and race depending) and can switch up the energy type. At 2nd level, he is doing about the same damage. At 3rd level, he is doing 61% more damage and has 5 more feet range. At 4th level, he is doing 93% more damage (nearly double damage) and still has 5 more feet range.

Sure, there is a 5% (or 10%) chance of being dazed, but that will not be a major factor like doing 3rd level damage at 2nd level.

 

[NilesB]

4) Learn that Astral Construct can do far more than a similarly-themed Conjurer.

I have seen this claim repeatedly, but examination of the stats of astral constructs and the creatures on the summoning lists leaves me wondering how anyone could possibly believe it.

Prove it sir.

 

[Slaved]

Yup. I forgot about Greater Rage and I forgot to add in the +2 for the weapon. You forgot the Flaming damage.

How can I forget flaming damage when the barbarian I put up did not have a flaming weapon?

I do not like flaming, it is too wishy-washy.

You did not allow Surging Euphoria to be multiplied by the critical

It looks like I did to me. I did not allow it to be empowered but I certainly allowed it to be multiplied on the critical.

If you expand my equation you get 0.95x1.05x1+0.95x1.05x[13d6+13]x1.5. So the 1 is modified both by the to hit and the critical boost.

So, you were at 97.3 average damage having primo items and using up 46,000 GP out of the Barbarian's 66,000 GP total.

Yes, I put melee stuff on a melee guy. I am glad that we have this point covered.

Let's see where the 11th level Human Wilder ends up with his 5 feats and a starting 18 Cha: Expanded Knowledge Energy Missile, Privileged Energy Cold, Empowered Power, Psionic Meditation, Psicrystal Affinity.

So you have 18 charisma, 13 wisdom, and 14 dexterity and you have an illegal feat selection (expanded knowledge energy missile and psionic meditation must be taken as level 6 feats or later for a wilder while privileged energy requires knowing energy missile). Plus I am not really a fan of privileged energy, it might be too powerful and since it cuts the arguement that the wilder is good at any energy he might need at the time it seems to deflate that arguement by trying to use it here.

If you would like to rebuild the character feel free. Although the barbarian I posted had 18 strength, 12 dexterity, 12 constitution, 6 intelligence, 8 wisdom, 6 charisma with 1 point buy point left over for either dexterity or constitution.

So, he can easily beat out the Barbarian damage-wise for 13 rounds per day.

11th level wilder with an 18 charisma gives 150 power points. Each manifested power at +4 wild surge uses about 13.2 power points on average. That means that this blast could be done 11 times per day while using the remaining 4 power points on something else.

Feat: Expanded Knowledge Energy Current
Power: Solicit Psycrystal

Close range, concentration based, plus if you enervate then your concentration ends so you cannot transfer it to the psicrystal.

It is a great tactic for power point conservation though! Under the proper circumstances it can definately work wonders. I am going to have to call you again on applying the surging euphoria incorrectly however.

The unfortunate part of this tactic is that it draws attention to the psicrystal.

He's a one trick pony, but a very very good one trick pony.

That is true. He is a one trick pony and it is a good trick.

All of this talk about the Wilder only Nova-ing a few times per day and he can do it for 9 combats 5+ rounds each by 12th level.

Energy current is your nova? I have no idea what your definition of nova is, but it is different than all of the rest of the definitions provided in this thread so far I believe.

Plus, while the energy current and solicit psicrystal is a great combination it has some pretty big issues with concentration checks, short range, limited to energy damage, target selection, extremely risky versus creatures with dispelling abilities, and so on.

And, I am not a Psionics expert. I'm sure the Gish builder guys can come up with even more nastiness.

Does anyone want to try this?

Sure, the Barbarian came close at his magical level 11, but at level 12, he fell by the wayside big time all over again.

Well, I would ask that you make a legal build first and refrain from using privileged energy. The feat does improve your damage per round but it also makes your point about the wilder being able to change energy types moot.

 

[Slaved]

How is that different than a Sorcerer or Wizard with the exception that the Wilder tends to have better hit points and tends to have done more damage in round one to the opponent?

I feel that enervation is a very powerful spell. It may not be able to do the same amount of damage as compared with the energy ray but wow does it pack a punch!

Granted, the Wilder might be dazed if he surges. Stuff happens. But even then, it does not mean that the melee attacker will necessarily knock the Wilder out on his very next turn except possibly at real low levels.

Well, we are looking at the melee guy getting a charge in and almost certainly hit. The next round he gets a full attack in against the wilder.

A wilder at level 11, as that was what my previous post talked about, has 11d6 base hit dice and lets assume a 16 constitution. That gives an average of 74 hit points.

If the wilder had an armor class of 24 = 10 base, +7 mithril breastplate+2, +4 heavy shield+2, +2 dexterity, +1 ring of deflection then the fighter (base strength 16, final strength 22, greatsword +2, boots of speed, weapon focus, weapon specialization) I posted before does an average of 20.9 damage on the charge and 62.7 damage on the full attack which knocks the wilder down to -9.6.

I know that character versus character is not to be used in balancing but I think that this comparison is interesting.

Assuming that the fighters touch armor class is low, probably a good assumption, then the wilder hits 95% of the time but fails to kill the fighter. 20% of the time this leaves the wilder open to being killed on the full attack. Otherwise the wilder takes a 5' step, refocuses (likely an 85% chance of success) and then has a 95% chance to kill the fighter. If this fails then the wilder is dead.

If the fighter had won initiative then he could have been on the wilder, then the wilder gets his shot off, then the fighter gets the full attack and wins.

With that fighter who was using about two thirds of his wealth for this example, had no race, and was only using 2 out of his 10 feats it basically came down to initiative.

Again, I know that player versus player is not a good balancing tool at all but the results here are interesting.

This "opponents will be on top of the Wilder in one round" argument is not very persuasive.

If they are not then it means that the foes are engaged in melee and so their touch armor classes will likely be 8 points higher.

Or the foes will be out of range of close range spells and powers. The 11th level wilder who is wild surging for +4 still has a range of only 60'. That is not very far.

A well designed psionic character should have at least one long range attack. A poorly designed one does not.

Which long range power would you suggest? Or do you mean something like a bow? Are you going to spend any feats or powers known to help you with this bow?

 

[Enforcer]

Some points not included (or at least not emphasized enough) in KarinsDad's Wilder examples:

Shooting into melee is a -4 penalty. Shooting someone who has cover (because the party fighter is in the way), is another -4 penalty. Precise Shot costs two feats, we've now used what, all of them for a highly specific build that's still defeated by Lesser Globe of Invulnerability or countered by a melee monster simply closing in and eating the Wilder and his crappy hit points? Sure, they get d6, and Wizards/Sorcerers can be attacked in melee too, but Wizards/Sorcerers have more and better defenses. It can and does happen, and any party-level appropriate melee monster is a threat.

I suppose the Wilder can use precious Powers Known slots for defensive powers (which are almost all weaker than arcane defensive spells--and with light armor and a shield the two that are equal or better are definitely not the best choices for the Wilder's very few Powers Known), but manifesting them is a round spent not "novaing" and therefore not a round that any enemy cares about the Wilder--if he's not using his one trick then he might as well be part of the scenery. A 5th level Wizard/6th level Sorcerer can just cast Fly and get out of the way, slinging offensive spells from out of reach (a very common tactic), the Wilder needs yet another feat (and 9th level, 3-4 more levels than their arcane "weaker" cousins!), as do non-Nomad psions (and even Nomads need 1-2 more levels than the arcane guys). The Wizard/Sorcerer can cast Stoneskin and not care about melee opponents, the Wilder/Psion's equivalent is the much weaker Biofeedback (another Power Known) or wasting actions (and Powers Known) on Vigor every time he gets hit.

Schism still sucks, and without errata that improves it, it will always suck. It manifests your weakest powers at a much lower level of augmentation, costs YET ANOTHER FEAT for the Wilder (or any non-Telepath Psion) to get, wastes your first round (or whatever round you manifest it in), only pays off after a few rounds of combat (where the pp spent on Schism is finally equaled by the extra pp spent by the 2nd mind), and makes the Wilder hemorrhage power points. Quicken Power would have been the better choice, except that every psionic character is handicapped when it comes to metapsionics, as it takes an extra feat (Psionic Meditation) to use metapsionics once per round like their "weaker" arcane cousins. I still say a Psion cohort from Leadership is the best way to spend that feat if you want extra actions per round.

Wizards/Sorcerers beat Psions/Wilders due to their ease of metamagic and free caster level scaling for their spells. Psions/Wilders have substantial extra costs for both.

Why is the Barbarian considered to have great gear because he has less than the standard DMG wealth per level? That makes no sense at all.

Crystal Shard (and Swarm) is specifically stopped by Damage Reduction that's effective against Slashing weapons, despite the fact that no magic spell is limited this way. See Complete Psionic for details. Oh, and yet another Power Known for the Wilder--they only get 11 total remember!

Your Wilder examples all spend feats and Powers Known as if there's nothing else good out there for him, highlighting the fact that your builds are all ultra-specialized to take advantage of the Wilder's one trick. Yes, your Wilder can dish out hellacious damage, but he's definitely fragile to anyone that wants to take him out due to lack of defense and escape abilities. I'd bank on Slaved's Barbarian any day of the week. Charging Fast Movement Power Attack with greatsword and rage-enhanced Strength on a d12 hit die, rage-enhanced Constitution frame vs. d6 hit die, light armor, shield, and little to no defensive powers that can't kill the barb in one round despite undeniably heavy damage power? Bye bye Wilder.

Finally, Wizards/Sorcerers can blast almost as well as the Wilder while still having defensive and utility spells, and can do it using less resources per encounter than the Wilder. I love Psionics, but I just can't see why the Wilder is so game-breakingly powerful.

 

[AllisterH]

I have seen this claim repeatedly, but examination of the stats of astral constructs and the creatures on the summoning lists leaves me wondering how anyone could possibly believe it.

Prove it sir.

Actually, there was another thread that went through it.

The stats on the astral construct can and will be better than the equivalent level monster summoned. The big difference is the AC.

The limiting difference is that as you go up in levels, the Summon Monster spells net you creatures with good spell like abilities. The psionic versions are basically designed only for combat.

1. Astral Constructs start up with 1 significant advantage. They aren't affected by spells that hedge/protect against outsiders like the normal summon monster spells.

2. The menu choice of astral constructs is a definite advantage as you pretty much will never get the best of both worlds with the monster summon tables.

3. Being a construct, An astral construct has immunity to poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, necromancy effects, mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects), and any effect that requires a Fortitude save unless it also works on objects or is harmless. It is not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability damage, ability drain, fatigue, exhaustion, or energy drain.

Point 1&3 already make it stronger than the equivalent

Ex: Astral Construct 3 vs Summon Monster III (note: This doesn't even include the various menu choices)

HP: Astral Construct wins. Pretty much all of the equivalent summoned monsters have HP in the 20-25 HP range whereas the astral construct is in the mid 30s.

AC: The best AC for monster summoned is 17. Astral construct is at 20.

Atk: Not the best, but definitely not the worst.

Here's where it really bites. No summoned monster is going to be the best in all of these categories. Might have high atk like the Croc but low landspeed, high HP but has a low AC. The astral construct though pretty much either has the best physical stats or at the LEAST, in the top 3.

Where the Astral Construct loses out is at the mid to high levels not on physical stats of course, where it STILL dominates, but the lack of SU and SP abilities is where it loses out which doesn't really start to kick in at level 6

EX: Summon Monster VI nets you a Bralani which can cure serious wounds at will.

However, if you're looking for a combat monster, absolutely NOTHING at any Summon Monster matches the power of the similar-level Astral Construct.

 

[Enforcer]

Astral Constructs are indeed better than Summon Monster, in melee combat. Spell-like abilities at higher levels definitely give Summon Monster the edge though.

Also, one Astral Construct at a time (yeah, I know, not a big fan of the nerf either, but it is in the Rules as Written and I enforce it in my game) vs. multiple Summoned Monsters. I much prefer Augment Summoning to Boost Construct though--and any Conjurer or Shaper will have their respective feat.

 

[Slaved]

Where the Astral Construct loses out is at the mid to high levels not on physical stats of course, where it STILL dominates, but the lack of SU and SP abilities is where it loses out which doesn't really start to kick in at level 6

But if the summons win at all then nails point is invalidated. He said that you have to learn that an astral construct can do far more than a conjurer. If the conjurer loses to fighting but wins in other abilities then his point 4 is not true.

Looking at summon monster 3 there are a few pretty tough combat guys on there. Their armor classes and hit points are not as high as the astral construct as you said but their damage is way above.

Plus there is the hellhound. He is not the greatest but I really like that breath weapon! Since the saving throw is constitution based a conjurer with augmented summoning would have his hellhound with a DC 15 breath weapon. That just sounds like fun to me.

 

[AllisterH]

Astral Constructs are indeed better than Summon Monster, in melee combat. Spell-like abilities at higher levels definitely give Summon Monster the edge though.

.

No it doesnt.

Spell-like abilities at BEST make them equal. Personally, it depends on how High you value spell-like abilities and it actually depends on the class. I mean, if you're a wizard, most of the Summon Monster abilities duplicate spells you should already have on your list. Sure, there are creatures like the Brelani that have healing abilities but other than that? Now, if you're a sorceror, Summon Monster VI and higher are great since they increase your spells known.

High damage? Like I said before, if the astral construct isn't tops in stats, it is in the top 3 and of the Summon Monster III creatures, only 2 beat it in terms of damage and those two have AC and HP significantly lower than the astral construct.

Trying to hedge and say, "They are some good creatures..like the hellhound" is unfortunately not being totally honest. Sure, if for some reason I was fighting a cold creature, then hell hound is a great choice but pretty much if I'm wanting a fighting machine, astral constructs are CLEARLY superior.

(As an aside, the Menu choice allows one to tailor your construct to the best situation so at Astral Construct IV and above, you can add the appropriate energy damage)

 

[Enforcer]

I disagree--high damage output from a summon is more important to me than durability (they only last 1 round/level anyways). You want them to hurt the enemy, and Summon Monster still does this better than Astral Construct.